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05 18 1991 Public Minutes \ '1 . THB CORPORATION OP THB TOWNSHIP OP ORO SPBCIAL PUBLIC KBB'lING OF COUNCIL SATURDAY. HAY 18.1111. . 1:00 A.H. - COUNCIL CHAKBDS ORB IlUNDRBD ANI) PIPTY-PIPTR DB'lING 1188-1111 COUNCIL council met this day, pursuant to adjournment @ 9:00 a.m. with the following members present: Reeve Robert E. Drury Deputy Reeve David Caldwell Councillor Allan Johnson Absent: Councillor David Burton Councillor Alastair Crawford Also Present Were: Mr. Paul Eenhoorn, Ms. Pat Harwood, Mr. Robert James, O.P.P. Constable Wayne Ross, O.P.P. Serjeant Bob Gruzuk, Oro Fire Captain Randy Langstaff, Mr. Tony Ercolini Mr. John Maxwell, P.R. Holmes, Mr. Paul Taylor, Ms. Anne M. Lancaster, Corret Lancaster, Ms. Marian Phillips, Ms. Babs Cook, Mr. Percy Yungblut, Ms. Betty Yungblut, Mr. Bob Livsey, Mr. Jim Boyes, Ms. Elizabeth Pollard, Mr. Sam Fairley, Ms Yvonne Fairley, Mr. Ray G. Bowes, Mr. Ray Powell, Mr. Jim Cowe, Mr. Al Wrigley, Ms. Gracy Pearcey, Mr. John Gilbert, Mr. Greg Howard, Aleksas Valadka, Mr. Bob Gregory, Mr. Albert Wrigley and Mr. and Mrs. Diarmuid Fitzgerald. Reeve Robert E. Drury chaired the meeting. Note: The purpose of this meeting was to hear residents adjacent t Lake Simcoe who had concerns with regards to the problems caused by Smelt Fishermen. Reeve Drury: I would like to thank everyone for coming out this morning. Council of the Corporation of the Township of Oro has received a great number of complaints this year with regards to the Smelt Fishermen and because of these complaints we have decided to hold this open Public Meeting t allow you people to assist us in trying to alleviate this problem. I would also like to apologize if everyone did not receive a notice, as they were posted in the local General Stores. Judy catania of Simcoesid Ratepayers Association notified a number 0 people, and our By-Law Enforcement Officer Robert James tried to notify as many peopl as he could. I will now open the meeting with questions and concerns. Mr. Fitzgerald: We have put up with the Smelt situation fo ten years. We have very attractive property down there from the point of smel fishermen because we have a north and sout breakwater and the north breakwater extend about 300 feet out into the lake and is accessible from Mill Street. Each year we have to have a smelt patrol and we shoo " Diarmuid Fitzgerald: Reeve Drury: Constable Ross: - 2 - them out onto the breakwater. The breakwater is actually private property because it is a water lot that we rent fro the Ministry of Natural Resources. Every year we have a terrible mess to clean up, they dump garbage, they set fires, this year they ripped up dock parts and they also burned through the power cable that extends out that we have for our little light house. We had a Board Meeting last night and we have adopted a policy and our policy durin smelt season is going to be that we are going to put a fence along our property line, right out virtually into the water and we are going to patrol. As we did thi year we will spend a lot of time phoning the police and in one instance I understand, the Fire Department. That fence is not intended to keep our local residents from using the breakwater. Asked the two constables present as to the number of trespassing offense charges laid with regards to this problem. First of all, I would like to point out that all we have is the reported incidents I am sure there is a lot of people that do not want to come forward or do not want to get involved, or handle it themselves, etc which is fine, but we do like to hear abou it so that we can take some action and mak some plans. The public seems to be coming forward more, we noticed'more this year than previous years and we would like to encourage this. We actually experienced most of our occurrences in Hawkestone and Simcoeside. From the tenth on down toward Barrie, we only had five calls this year. There was twenty-six occurrences in Hawkestone and Simcoeside, twenty-one in Hawkestone and five in Simcoeside. We lai seventy-five trespass the property act charges this year. Four liquor licence ac charges that were actually documented as occurrences, but it is difficult for me to gather statistics from the Orillia Detachment, and I am sure there is more liquor charges that were laid by individua officers. Numerous warnings were issued, and I do wonder about the effectiveness of that because when we turn our backs they just return. This year it has been more 0 an enforcement thrust than warnings. We laid thirty-eight parking charges and we had one damage incident to a vehicle that was parked there. From the Barrie side of the line, from the tenth .on down, we had two trespass the property act charges and four liquor licence act charges. My understanding is that our parking charges are not backed up by By-Law and we have already had discussions with Bob Jame and with Council and hopefully this will b tightened up. , . - 3 - Constable Ross: We have good co-operation and response fro the By-Law end of things and what we do is we offer the By-Law Enforcement Officer to ride with one of our guys during the smelt season on evenings so that he is protected and so that we are more affective. Quite often we cannot enforce a provincial statute and a By-Law will cover it and it is a quick and simple way to rectify things. I understand the Township is in the process of typing up the Parking By-La now. Another suggestion that could come of this is if there is a local land owner or a group that could provide some sort of parking even at some sort of fee, to get the cars off the road. I know the Fire Department has concerns about getting down to the lake with a tanker. I do not know if it is feasible but if the Public Works Department could put up barricades allowin just pedestrian foot traffic from the curv on down and no vehicles. Garbage receptacles, I know there is the big dumpster there but to get the people t use it is one thing but to have garbage receptacles there available for them, all the way up along the roadway even as far a the Ukrainian Camp and the bridge, might help in Hawkestone. We really encourage property owners to put a sign up, even if it only lasts a few days, it helps us with actually laying charges. We have already had good response from the Fire Department, they will go out and assist us with knocking down fires, etc. Reeve Drury: We have seen some pictures of the mess tha is left down around the area. Pat Harwood Parks and Recreation Supervisor spent a whole week with her crew, cleaning up afterwards and I know that individual property owners spent a lot of time cleaning up also. I do not think anyone would have a major problem with smelt fishermen fishing off the dock if they would just be neat and clean and tidy abou it. Babs Cook: I live next to the open walkway on the 9th Line. I am the one who put the two calls into the police. These people are walking through all my property. They tell me the have every right to be there. They have their fires on the new dock right next to me. What are we suppose to do about all these cars that come into that lot and get stuck in the mud, churning their cars @ 4:30 a.m. every night for three weeks? Th garbage is still laying there, there is booze bottles, they are stuck right in the creek that goes into the lake all full of garbage and nothing has been done about it . - 4 - Babs Cook: I would like to know why that property is open for them to put cars in, it never use to be and now that you have the ramp at th 9th Line, why do we have this still open, there use to be a fence there? Reeve Drury: Could you please clarify for us which property that the parking is taking place. Babs Cook: I am on Lakeshore when you go down the 9th Line and turn left, right at the turn of the road there is an open walkway there, there is no longer a fence up. If you can close the park off and keep the cars out 0 the park, how come you cannot close this off and keep them out of there? Dr. Valadka Our house is just south of the dock and every year we have big problems with the smelt fishermen. I don't know which is worse the black flies or hoards of smelt fishermen. They damage the fence and they cut the cedar trees from the hedge which i very hard to replace. They use our lawn for washroom facilities and we have to clean it up almost every morning for about three weeks. I hope you have some suggestions to help the problems. Reeve Drury: Have you called the police on this matter? Is it possible to catch the people doing this type of thing? Dr. Valadka It is very hard to stay up every night for about two weeks. I called about ten years ago but then I gave up because it is aver difficult problem. Ray Bowes: I am at 6 Parks ide Drive. My concern is the boat ramp at the end of the 9th and th parking lot and I just want to reiterate again, we do not want the smelt fishing fiasco that occurs every year and the horrors we experience in that three week period to accelerate into a three month scenario where we have noise and fires dow there. Reeve Drury: I am going to try and restrict the questions and comments strictly to the smelt fishing and other related matters ar not to be dealt with at this meeting this morning. Jim Cowie: We all know there is a problem, some of th smelt fishermen I have talked to are reasonable, others are not and have no regard for property and some of them can get physical and violent just by their own actions by destroying private property etc Most of them are not logical, they will tell somebody that the owner gave me permission to use his dock. The people along the Lakeshore do add a lo of taxes to this Township and a solution might be an off duty police officer on patrol for two weeks of the year at the - 5 - Jim cowie: hours when the smelt fishermen are active. The problems are the budget constraints of the Provincial Government and the Police Force cannot be there all the time. As Officer Ross says, Officer James will go with a Police Officer for protection, therefore, he admits they are violent. Private citizens cannot really patrol on their own and some of them are scared. Th best solution is police protection, Office James cannot do it and he is not on duty a that time. To put him on overtime, why no get a police officer who can legally enforce the trespassing charges. Perhaps the Township could purchase a few hundred signs at a reasonable price and sell them to the residents down there for a cheaper price or have Officer James set them up. Fences will not work, if it is a wood fenc it would only be firewood for the fishermen. It is so out of hand it is crazy. It posses a safety hazard and if m house catches on fire they cannot get around the corners. The fires, on a windy night, as the Fire Chief knows, a small fire was started which set onto a cedar hedge and almost cost a garage and a house they basically do not have any regard for anyone elses property. What does it cost for an off duty officer? Constable Ross: Maybe I can comment on that. I do not think that an off duty officer is the answer. It is a big enough Public concern that I can go before my boss and ask for the resources that we need and this year i has come to the forefront more than ever. It is traditional, we have been doing this since 1909 I guess out there. There is no reason that I cannot bring a plan to handl this, before my boss if there is a Public response to it, it depends on the people reporting it. If I can prove to him that it is a problem and if everyone calls in, it is pretty hard for him to ignore and I can ask for resources. I cannot stress to much of having everything reported. Jim Cowie: (Suggested self policing and to maybe have somebody knowledgeable in the area who knows who lives down there and who should not be there). Another thing we may have a problem with and that is there has been a lot of break- ins down there, do you think the smelt fishermen could be using that as a pretext to case the homes? Reeve Drury: It might be a good idea to have the people down there sign a piece of paper stating they have not given anyone permission to trespass on their property. - 6 - Jim cowie: Maybe another idea would be to put the peoples names on your waterfront subdivision plans and have the people down here sign a blank form saying I do not allow trespassers on my property. Constable Ross: Why don't you invite me out to your next ratepayers or cottagers association meetin and we can set something up? Sam Fairley: I think that there should be more of a deterrent, I don't think a fifty-three dollar fine is enough, if that is what it is. Some of them get fines one night and are back the next night in the same place. The people think that it is their right to destroy property. I went to the Ministry of Natural Resources for a handbook of fishing and remember seeing that if you were not going to use the fish for consumption then it has to go back in the water. I have buried thousands of these fish after smelt season. Perhaps the Ministry of Natural Resources can do something about that. Paul Taylor: I have a cottage at the end of Robinson Street in Hawkestone and I have a creek running adjacent to our property. I have seven No Trespassing signs up and have bee to the O.P.P. in Orillia and signed an affidavit giving them Power of Attorney to arrest anybody on the property. I have lost about 700 square feet of grass this year just from them trampling through it. We have literally thousands of fish laying rotting and cannot open our windows right now because of the smell. The papers and garbage on Robinson Street is everywhere and nobody has bothered to pick it up. Ou driveway that runs about eight hundred fee is just covered in papers and we have already picked up seven garbage bags full of garbage. I have no suggestions other than close the dam road off. Reeve Drury: I just mentioned that to the Fire Chief this morning perhaps that is what we could do is close the road off for those two weeks and open only to local residents. Jim Boyes: I am out at Orillia Township and am a member of the Hawkestone Yacht Club. Firs of all I would like to thank the O.P.P. fo their support over the past season. Unlik some, we found that they were there within fifteen minutes. I do support them also 0 the enforcement of By-Laws and I think if the By-Laws are not stringent enough then they should be made that way. Perhaps rather than No Parking we are looking at tow away zones and I am sure that there is enough tow trucks in the area that would b more than pleased to come and tow these cars away. I think that is the kind of deterrent, a parking ticket is ripped up and thrown away. - 7 - Jim Boyes: closing off roads, I think is going to cause the Fire Department all kinds of hassle, the whole area could be designated a tow away zone for a period of time. Tha is the sort of deterrent when they have to go and retrieve their vehicle and when the have to pay the tow fee. The No Trespassing, I would like to see it the hunters way, unless the person has written authority to be on the property, they are charged, put the onus is on the smelt fishermen not on the property owner. It must be strong deterrents. Bob Gregory: I live just up from the Hawkestone Dock. In my area the police were there a fair bi this year. I walked down and I talked to the smelt fishermen and I don't think the majority of them are bad. I think we have to try and educate people a little bit som how. If there was some way that the Council could push by advertising, get the Toronto star and Sun up here and let them know what the problem is so the people could read about how we are getting upset about it and I think they might be a littl more courteous. The enforcement is important but there is so many of these people that you are never going to catch them all. Is there any way that you have to have some sort of a licence to smelt fish? You are using commercial size nets, is there some way that you have to registe yourself to even be there fishing? Constable Ross: We talked to Randy Brooks from the Ministr of Natural Resources and smelt fishing is one of those traditional kind of things that is one of the exemptions; only one member in the party needs a licence, unlik regular angling and is quite a bit looser enforcement wise than regular day to day angling. They can use nets where normally they can't and so forth. When we were talking to the smelt fishermen down there, it is a business for many of them, they go to the farmers market the next day with their catch. Tony Ercolini: There are signs up everywhere that anybody could see. At the Yacht Club there are signs up and they just paint black paint 0 something over them. They litter the streets so bad. We took pictures of the creek with all the dead fish. Through the night it is like a speed trap, it is like the 401, they go up and down that road lik maniacs and you cannot sleep for two or three weeks. (Passed around pictures of the creek with the dead fish). The end of the road at Robinson Street is like a garbage dump. Corret Lancaster: Diarmuid Fitzgerald: Constable Cruzuk: Diarmuid Fitzgerald: - 8 - We represent the property at the bottom of Line 12. The creek runs through the Taylor's property and our own and I would just like to acknowledge these facts involving the mess and everything that goe on and would like to see a lot stronger situation as far as stopping these people from even entering the area. I have calle the police about five times myself and I patrol our own land and Mr. Taylors many a night. I will ask people to leave and the will not leave or they will leave and come back again. The police cannot be there al the time and neither can we. We have even had fires right up the side of our boat house almost singeing the roof of the boat house. They have no respect where they pu the fires, they take pieces of our deck to burn. We have had some pretty heated arguments with some of these fishermen and I would just like to say that I would like to see that these people are not even allowed near the area. We came back from Florida and got our bags out of the truck and the first thing I did was go down to the Hawkestone Yacht Club and even though the smelt season had past, one of the things I noticed was to our south about one quarter of a mile was wall to wall lights with smelt fishermen. We did not have one single individual on our dock and no cars down the end of Mill street and largely due to the fact that th word is out that we were starting to get tough. We cannot keep them off the public docks but if people consistently enforce, within a few years I think you will find that people will get the message and they will start going over to the public dock. One other thing, there was a gentlemen tha mentioned something about the star or the Sun and I would like to say that if somebody could draft a summary at this meeting of the complaints and send it in t I think it is Mr. Powers at the Star because I think most of these smelt fishermen come from the Golden Horseshoe area. Another thing regarding posting, am I righ in saying that rather than a sign it is sufficient to have some kind of red circle is there not a symbol that you can legally put up. Yes there is for certain things, for instance like on the highways you can put down a biker with the red circle around with the slash through it. However, I don't know what kind of design you could put up for smelt fishermen. A red circle with a smelt. - 9 - Constable Cruzuk: We are going to suggest a couple of things There is a lot you folks can do together a groups, by writing letters to the differen branches of Government, the Attorney Generals Department, the Ministry of Natural Resources and we will get into tha later. But as far as the signs go, probably the No Trespassing signs are probably the best. Reeve Drury: What is the maximum fine that can be received for the trespassing. Constable Cruzuk: I think it is about $1000. and in fact we would like to suggest that perhaps we woul have to approach the Crown Attorney, maybe with your help, and suggest that there is serious problem in the area with trespassers and that they would suggest to all the O.P.P. Officers that if they lay a trespassing charge, instead of giving them the usual Provincial Offenses Ticket which allows payment out of court that if they put no set fine on it then that person has to come back for Court in orillia or Barri and has to appear before a Justice and in effect there is a trial held. Then the Justice can rule on the evidence given and lay a more severe penalty on it, however, we cannot just decide this on our own. ? . I live next to Mr. Taylors on Robinson street. Regarding the newspapers, you hav to time it right because the newspapers pu out their information just before the smel season starts so to try to tell them anything today would not be much use. I like the idea of a fine because when it hits your pocket you really know and $1000 is a pretty good amount. I like Mr. Taylor's idea to block off the road. Something has to be done, both my neighbours are suffering every year and I have been very fortunate so far but it is certainly getting worse, it is not getting better. The worse part about it is the liquor, I notice every year there is an increase in the consumption. They bring their own gallon jugs of home made wine, then they just cut apart, so by the time they even get there they have already had quite a few. Albert wrigley: I live in the Carthew Bay area and am on the Community Policing Committee for that area. We have about four or five areas in the Carthew Bay area where the smelt fishermen congregate. I think it makes it extremely difficult to close off roads, etc. the police cannot be in all these places at the same time. The problems see to get worse year after year. They should be restricted to certain areas so that at least the Police can concentrate on it. - 10 - Al wrigley: It seems to me that by some of the reports we have had at our Police Committee Meetings that they are even threatening to swarm the police in some instances. I fee we have to take some really drastic action on this at least on the short term until w get people educated. I would also like to congratulate Council for calling this meeting. Bob Livsey: I am from the Carthew Bay area and the are I would like to speak about is the first little creek that runs from just South of Carthew Bay and this creek for the last four years, the people that own the property have hired a person who sits ther every night to guard their property. I think that this is unnecessary and it is a area where that prior to this being done the area was left in an awful mess. The other area that I would like to speak abou is the dock right at Carthew Bay. I know that I have personally cleaned that area u in years previous. Another matter is the parking all the way around Carthew Bay and half way up the road almost to the corner of Bayview Avenue when the smelt fishing i on they park on both sides of the street. Coming around the corner from the end of the 14th or the Town Line to turn left and go South is really very dangerous because there is hardly room enough for one car to get through with cars parked on both sides of the road. I would think a tow away zon in that area would be something that somebody should definitely look at because it is a danger. Not just a danger in smel fishing season but with trailers there at this time of the year and cars and boats parking on that road, it is a very dangerous situation. Greg Howard: I am from Simcoeside and I would like to assure everyone that we have our problems down there too. I would like to say that the O.P.P. have done an excellent job this year, they have worked their tails off, bu the problem is that they can't be there al the time. Some of the suggestions that came up about self policing the waterfront is an excellent idea. One problem we have is that the waterfront is a Promenade and it is Government land and they own the waterfront area. People who come up asser their rights and we don't have any rights to tell them to get off. The problem is w have to maintain it. A suggestion that we came up with at a meeting with our ratepayers regarding perhaps some of those rights is to sell part of the waterfront t the waterfront owners but provide for a promenade or a walkway through, which is what it is used for now and in that way we could monitor and police it for smelt fishermen. Hearing everyones comments and looking at a letter that was sent to Judy Catania on January 11th. , ' Greg Howard: Jim Cowie: Grant Crawford: Reeve Drury: Deputy Reeve Caldwell: - 11 - (Read some of the issues and solutions tha came up in the letter related to the nuisance caused by Smelt Fishermen.) Another point that was raised was the concern over the Township's liability if one of these people were to get hurt on ou properties, who is going to be responsible from a legal point of view. Are we paying tax dollars to have liability insurance fo that? I do agree that strong deterrents i the answer also. We are also going to hav supervised areas if we are going to have smelt fishermen at all. We have heard a lot from Hawkestone, Simcoeside and Carthew Bay, but bear in mind that if we solve their problems we ma be shifting it down to Shanty Bay, so the solutions must be universal. Is there similar meetings being held in Keswick, Barrie, orillia, because we are going to put our problems onto them. I am caretaker of Bonita Glen down at Hawkestone. The Head Commissioner and the Assistant Commissioner have been after me because of the mess on the property. I sleep down there at night and at all hours of the night I am out wandering around and I am loosing my sleep and at my age I need it. They say that I should be able to kee them out of that property and I can't. They start a fire and use our property and make a mess, they also cut off the limbs 0 our trees. I have a guy take my truck and go up and down the frontage and I pick up all the garbage and the next morning it is just as bad. I cannot recommend anything but on the other hand I would like to do something because they are on my back. I told them to notify the Attorney General like the officer said. We have a lot of lake and road frontage and every smelt fishing season I am getting tired of it. Before I ask the O.P.P. to summarize, I am going to ask the Council Members if they have anything they would like to bring forward. One of the things that has been suggested is that letters be sent to the appropriate Provincial Agencies and I think that the idea of supporting your letter with actual pictures preferably in colour. If there i other people with pictures that they are not using in that area then perhaps we could co-ordinate them through the Townshi Office or somewhere so that we can send them. The more people that send the message the more likely it is to be acknowledged. councillor Johnson: Reeve Drury: constable Ross: Constable cruzuk: - 12 - I cannot really say anything that has not already been said. This mornings meeting was called for information for us and I think this an ideal opportunity for the people that are here and the people that couldn't come to send their letters in as the officers have already stated they need support in a situation like this. I don't feel qualified to speak on the fishing situation because the last time I went fishing was to the A&P store and I got all I needed there. Just before I ask Wayne and Bob to summarize. There is seven points that I made that people brought up here today, an that being: Ride Program, Tow Away Zone, stronger Signs, Trespass Signs, Close Street Off, No Parking, and the Letter writing. We are increasing pressure from Toronto, w live in a beautiful area with Lakeshore an Ski Resorts, etc. and it is not going to g away. I think a meeting like this is really important to clarify things and to give us direction as to how you want thing handled. This does give me some ammunitio to use with my boss and I cannot see havin a problem of convincing him of the need fo enforcement. I will be glad to attend any ratepayers, cottagers association meetings etc. and plan for this over the summer. You can also feel free to utilize or get i touch with the community policing Committe that is up and active in the Township. They meet the second Tuesday of every mont and the Public is certainly welcome to attend. This idea of controlling a situation, it is a situation that is not going to go away and enforcing is one aspect but if I was an entrepreneur I woul be approaching somebody about having a smelt fishing festival and making some money off of it and try and concentrate in one area where we can control it and if anybody is caught outside the area perhaps something could be done. I think this ide of the Township sending a letter to the Attorney General or to the Crown Attorney so he can direct us to proceed with a no set fine. I think this will be very effective, but we can't do it on our own because it would look like it was being vindicative. If they don't shut down our R.I.D.E. Program from lack of Provincial funds, I am sure they would be available next spring. I would just like to echo Wayne's thoughts. I live in Wasaga Beach and there is a big problem there as well. One of the problem is people coming up and opening up their cottages and burning all the leaves. They just enacted a By-Law and there is absolutely no open fires at all allowed in Wasaga Beach, except for cooking . . . - 13 - Constable Cruzuk: and warmth. I do not know what the fire regulations are here but perhaps it is something you could look at. Backing up what Wayne said and as you are all aware with the times we are in, money is the bottom rung on the latter. If you have th money and the funds available you can have anything done but we are limited with our budgets and we can plan ahead if you peopl show it is a big enough problem and obviously you have this morning. We did not realize it was on such a big scale and obviously you folks have been putting up with a lot of things you should not have been putting up with. Paul Eenhoorn: The Fire Department is certainly willing t assist the Tax Payers to try to control this problem but the only thing they have to remember under the Fire Code is that if we are going to lay charges; a) we are going to need a witness, or b) we have to see someone actually do it ourselves. If in fact you people do see someone light a fire, definitely give us a call right away and we will come down and investigate and if possible we will lay charges under the Fire Code. As far as the burning situatio in Oro Township, we do not allow it and it is not allowed under the Fire Code; we usually give the person one break. During the last smelt fishing episode there was one Tax Payer that called me four times in one area and yet as soon as the smelt fishing is over they ask me for permission to burn. I think you have to be a little bit realistic about it, if we are going to enforce this, if you are going to burn yourself then you are going to be open to charges too. Reeve Drury: Ladies and Gentlemen, I would like to than you for coming out on this Saturday morning. We have had some excellent point that you have brought forward and that was the idea of the meeting so that we could have input from the Public. You are the people that are there and you know what th problems are and how best to address them. I think through the O.P.P. and our own staff here we can probably make the situation a little better over the years t come. I think the Community based policin is an excellent avenue to go. Al Wrigley is a member in your area and so as Wayne has said don't be afraid to come forward t one of the meetings and express your concerns. Thank you again for coming out this morning. ß[~~ Re,ve Robert E. Drury tJr 111/1 - Clerk Robert W. Small