10 30 1991 Public Minutes
, ,
TRB CORPORATION 01' TRB TOWN8HIP OP ORO
PUBLIC DftING (OBVBLOPO CltARGBS AC'l')
WBDNBSDAY. OCTOBO 30. 1111 . 8:00 P.K.-COUNCJ:L CllAllBDS
ORB HUNDRBD ANI) BIGHTY-BIGftH DftING 1188-1111 COUNCIL
The following members of Council were present:
Reeve Robert E. Drury
Deputy Reeve David Caldwell
Councillor Alastair Crawford
Councillor Allan Johnson
Absent:
Councillor David Burton
Also Present Were:
Mr. Henry Sander, Mr. Ron Robinson, Mr. Vince
Dibacco, Mr. Bud Arbour, Mrs. Maxine Arbour, Mr
Eric Scott, Mr. George Scott, Mrs. Angela
Baldwin, Mr. Ralph Clarke, Mrs. Josephine
Martensson, Mr. Joseph S. King, and Mr. Ross
Coneybear.
Reeve Robert E. Drury chaired the meeting.
Reeve Drury opened the meeting by explaining to those present that
the purpose of the Public Meeting was to receive input and comments
with respect to the proposed Development Charges rates pursuant to
Bill 20, known as the Development Charges Act, 1989.
To date, the Council have not made a decision as to the rates
established, other than proceeding to this Public Meeting.
written comments are invited to be received by Friday, November 8,
1991. Notice of the Public Meeting was placed in both the Barrie
Examiner and the Orillia Packet on October 10, 1991.
Reeve Drury also advised that prior to this evening's meeting, an
Open House was held between the hours of 2:00 p.m. and 4:00 p.m. to
provide for a more informal exchange of information between the
public and the consultants and staff. All persons present would be
provided with an opportunity to ask questions or provide comments.
The meeting was then turned over to the Township's Engineer, Ron
Robinson and Vince Debacco of R.G. Robinson and Associates and to
Township Treasurer, Henry Sander, to further explain in more detail
the proposed Development Charge Fee.
Ron Robinson:
There is two main reasons for meeting here
tonight. Firstly, it gives us the
opportunity to explain very briefly the
Draft Report that we have prepared and
secondly and probably more importantly it
gives you people an opportunity for input.
Our firm was authorized by Council in May
of this year to proceed with the Study
Report under the Development Charges Act.
Over the subsequent months, in consultatio
with Township Staff, Township Planning
Consultants and several meetings with
Council, we have prepared the support
documentation and calculations and the
Draft Report.
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Ron Robinson:
The Draft Report was made available on or
about October 10, 1991, the day the notice
appeared in both the local papers, the cit
of Orillia paper and the City of Barrie
paper.
We would like to make it clear that we are
not here to argue or defend the Act as
such, but we are prepared to speak on our
report, to answer any questions you have
before the Final Report is prepared for
Council's consideration.
vince Dibacco, my colleague, has authored
the report, he has a hand out that he will
basically follow as a short presentation t
you people. We will then open the meeting
to you for your input.
vince Dibacco:
The reason for doing this Report is to try
to develop a charge that reflects the true
cost of new development, whether it be
residential, or non residential
development. The reason for the charge is
to cover the cost of growth related costs.
I should also mention that the cost that w
are going to be examining later on have
been net of provincial Subsidies or other
kinds of subsidies that the Council can
receive.
The other thing we should note is, why we
have these charges; is to support new
lands that will be developed.
The reason why we are doing this is becaus
in the past the municipalities were able t
collect levies as a result of the Municipa
Act and the Planning Act requirements.
However they had no basis for entering int
common services and collecting for common
services. Two years ago the Province of
ontario came up with this new Development
Charges Act which tried to give the
municipalities the power of implementing
common projects.
I would like to now explain how we came up
with this new policy. We started with
looking at the reason and the need for new
works and that is to support the new
development that is going to occur.
Existing development has not been factored
in, what we are looking at is the new
development that can occur.
In the Report, what we have tried to
summarize is the growth forecast for both
residential and non-residential growth.
The population that we have projected for
the base year of 1991 is approximately
8,800 people which was also confirmed by
recent information we received from the
Regional Assessment Office. We then had t
look at a ten year growth forecast. To do
that we consulted a number of different
documents that were available and differen
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vince Dibacco:
people that had different sources of
information. We have spoken to the
Planning Department here, to outside
consultants, to people that are in the
industry, trying to get an understanding a
to what developments could occur. We have
estimated that the new growth which may
occur over the next ten years is
approximately 5,900 people and that is
based as a result of looking at new plans
of subdivisions that are being processed,
development applications that are in
various stages of receiving approvals, etc
Likewise, we also looked at the Commercial
Development and Industrial Development tha
could happen. To do that we looked at wha
happened in the past and tried to project
what could happen in the future. As a
result of that we indicated that
approximately 365,000 square feet of new
non-residential development could occur.
Once we came up with our ten year growth
forecast, we then started to look at what
kind of services the Township would have t
bring on to satisfy the needs of that new
development. These are summarized in
Appendix "B" of our report. It identifies
all the works that we examined, which
include hard services such as bridges and
roads, water mains, Administration Service
such as expansion to the Municipal Offices
computer system expansion, and equipment
expansion. We looked at protective
services such as the requirements for more
fire stations, more fire vehicles, etc. W
also looked at soft services such as Parks
and Parks and Recreation.
To try to enhance your understanding of
this, I would like to take one example of
facility that we have looked at and show
you how we develop the cost associated wit
that in the levy. I will use the fire
station as an example, I think it is prett
representative of a typical service that
this township provides. (Referred to page
3.1 of the report and followed through,
coming up with the costs associated for ne
growth. )
I would like to now show you how the costs
come into play into the development charge
(Referred to page C-4 of the report which
summarizes the per capita cost for all the
works that were looked at, that the
municipality will be providing over the
next ten years.)
I would just like to point out that certai
portions of the Township have an additiona
service that the majority of the Township
does not have. There is two hamlets calle
Shanty Bay and Hawkestone which have a
municipal water supply system. That
service is only provided in those two
hamlets.
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vince Dibacco:
I would like to explain some of the
exemptions that we recommend is part of
this report and study. This applies for
new growth. There is certain items of
growth that should be exempted from the
application of these levies. The main one
pertain to things such as municipal uses,
yards, work yards, new municipal buildings
and also to schools. There is also other
uses that should also be exempted from
paying these charges, such as church
related uses, new non-residential farm
buildings, and things like new barns or ne
tool warehouses, etc.
The other thing I would like to mention is
the timing for payment of the charge. The
municipality has a number of options that
they could collect the charge on. Our
recommendation is that the charge should b
collected by the Township when the Buildin
Permit is issued. You would go through th
normal subdivision approval process, you
would sign your subdivision agreement; at
the time that you go and secure a Building
Permit is when you pay the new levy.
We would now like to receive your comments
or questions on this document and your
comments will be noted and if appropriate
we will be incorporating them in the final
document. We have set November 8th, 1991,
as the time that we will cut off any
comments, we will then revise our report
accordingly and anticipate having the fina
report to the Township by November 15th an
at that time the Treasurer will be taking
that report and setting up a Council date
to deal with it.
Joseph King:
I am speaking on behalf of MSL Properties.
Components like arenas and community
centres, is that to say that existing
residents will not use them?
Joseph King:
Existing residents will use old facilities
and new facilities. In the way we develop
the costs of that expansion; what we have
done is look at all the existing facilitie
that are there. Lets take the arena as an
example. The arena at this time is
approximately 80% utilized, you still have
about 20% opportunity of taking on
additional growth. We have come up with a
standard by which the existing residents
use the arena. We know what our future
population is going to be, so we have come
up with a future need and from that future
need we have netted out the 20% of the
arena that is not presently utilized.
It appears that the most critical number i
the per unit count 2.9, all the aggregate
dollar figures are divided by that amount.
What has been happening as most people are
aware is that the number of persons per
household have been decreasing steadily
since the 50's or 60's. What will happen
vince Dibacco:
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Joseph King:
if in a few years from now the actual
number of persons per household decreases?
Doesn't that mean that the municipality is
collecting far more money than they
actually need?
vince Dibacco:
You are right. If you have an opportunity
to go through our population forecast, we
have already factored in a declining per
unit factor. We have declined it in as O.
per year per unit. What we are saying as
time goes on the density factor will
decrease over time.
Joesph King:
You said at the beginning of your comments
that you looked at what the Township is
providing now in terms of services and
estimated what the growth would be and how
much it would cost to maintain those
services. Many of us in this Country
recently have rethought about the way we
live in terms what governments provide to
us and how much they provide to us. Many
of us are thinking that government and
citizens are asking for too much. Did you
discuss with the town at all whether in
fact we need as many community centres or
fire protection; the level of service, wa
it ever discussed that maybe we are
providing too much now?
vince Dibacco:
We have attempted to do that. As you can
appreciate there is no right or wrong
answer. When you come to something like
fire service for example, we try to find
out from the Province what was a desirable
standard. There is no literature to help
us out, so lacking that all we could do wa
just base it on past performance. If you
go through our analysis there is areas for
instance such as library facilities which
the municipality could start to allocate
costs for such a facility. There was a
perfect example where we had to make the
decision should we start to say that is a
desirable service that we want to provide
sometime in the future but if you go
through the analysis you can see there has
been zero cost allocated for that. There
is areas where we could have been putting
costs in but we have not and I picked
library service as one and there is many
others that we looked at but assigned no
cost to it because we have not provided
that service in the past.
Reeve Drury:
The feeling of this Council was the level
of service that we are providing today was
adequate and we certainly did not encourag
an increase level of service for the
future.
Joseph King:
The specific question I have pertains to
the water component as it relates to Shant
Bay in particular. Your firm did a study
back in July of 1990 and expanded the
existing system in Shanty Bay to service
our subdivision, the Arbour Subdivision as
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Joseph King:
well as the existing lots that have not ye
been hooked up. The bottom line on that
report from our perspective was that it wa
going to cost us approximately $2200. per
lot to get that service in place. Now I
look at this report and it indicates that
if this goes through as written it is goin
to cost us $3630. per lot which is an
increase of approximately 65-70 percent.
How do you justify this?
vince Dibacco:
The report was done approximately a year
and a half ago and was based on dollars
back in a year and a half to two years ago
What we have had to do is come up with a
common dollar for all of these works so we
used December 1991 as a represented common
dollar. So there is a certain amount of
escalation in the unit cost of probably 8-
percent. But that does not justify the
total increase that you see there.
The second reason I want to offer is more
complicated. To come up with a cost for a
service such as water you put all your
costs together and then you look at what
new development that is going to serve.
(Explained mathematically in detail.) Whe
you use this common approach you will find
that the cost to anyone developer or any
one project may be slightly greater or
slightly less than the common.
Ron Robinson:
What has not been mentioned is looking at
the report it includes only the expansion
of the water supply system. Under the Act
it applies to trunk water mains as well.
don't have the numbers here but I know the
truck water main constitutes a significant
increase in the cost.
Ralph Clark:
I am in Concession 1 of Oro and I
anticipate being a Developer. This
particular piece of land that I own and
anticipate developing; they have asked me
to upgrade the road from the corner of my
property back to the 15/16 sideroad. You
have here on Table 1-1, the third item, as
going to cost $247,800. to do that strip 0
road. I have a legitimate quotation here
from one of ontario's most reliable road
builders for $116,000. I feel one hundred
and ten percent increase as a cushion is
too high. That is a December of 1990
quotation.
vince Dibacco:
Maybe just a couple of points of
clarification. The cost you see here is a
estimated cost. When this Development
Charges Act is implemented you will no
longer be required to pay for that section
of the road, it will be done by the
Township under their Development charges
Policy. This cost you see here may
represent a higher level of service on tha
road than what this organization is
proposing. We may be high in certain area
and we may be low in others.
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Ralph Clark:
I would like you to explain to me about
front ending? I understand that if that I
am billed at that $247,000. and I put out
my $116,000. as the population grows; I
get a kick back basically because there
will be other people starting to use that
same road. This is where I am suppose to
get some of my front ending back, is that
correct?
vince Dibacco:
Correct. You made an assumption though
that this municipality will not have the
funds to undertake that project. This
municipality may at that point in time dee
that as a priority project and may actuall
construct that through their reserve funds
If their reserve funds is not sufficient
then they may ask you to front end that
road.
vince Dibacco:
My next problem is: You anticipate an
increase of 15,050 homes from 1991-2001
which is an average of 155 homes per year.
This Council, have been sitting on this
Council for the past six years and the two
bulk years are the only two years that you
guys went near this quota. In 1988 and 89
you surpassed these figures then you drop
to 28 in 1990 and I don't see a figure for
1991. Are there any homes passed in 91?
If you are anticipating 15,050 homes to pu
a bank account in there for front ending 0
for anything else, this Councilor any
future Council is going to have to wake up
and not take two and a half years to give
me an Official Plan Amendment which is
utterly ridiculous. I sent letters to
these various government people and
everyone of those people sent me back a
letter advising me within a two month
period that the land was acceptable to all
of them to go to a development. If that i
the rate you guys are going to operate you
will not see 15,050 new homes in this
period.
with respect to the 1991 figures; the
reason that they are not there yet as you
can appreciate we still have two months in
1991 and I didn't want to show anything
that was misleading.
Ralph Clark:
The costs that are shown here are best
guestimates as to the cost of constructing
these roads. If these roads are front
ended by a developer, the actual cost that
will be front ended will be the actual
construction costs. If it turns out to be
$116,000. that is all the better for
everyone because everyone will benefit fro
it.
Ron Robinson:
This is a ten year forecast but under the
Act we have to update this Report on the
fifth year, but it can be updated anytime.
If Council deemed that they wanted to look
at this Report every year then they can do
that. This is not fixed for ten years.
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vince Dibacco:
One of the recommendations in the report i
that the Treasurer on a yearly basis,
presents a report to Council advising them
of how well they performed against the
targets they set for the previous year.
The Treasurer has the power to recommend
that if he feels that those numbers are no
being matched, that the report be examined
with respect to certain aspects.
Ralph Clark:
I have one more suggestion to make here.
In my two and a half year period of trying
to get this Plan of Subdivision finalized,
I went through four Township Planners. I
do not feel that this Township requires tw
engineering companies to answer the
Council's questions.
Reeve Drury:
We do not want to tie things up, it is no
problem for us if it comes back across our
desk time and time again. Our Engineering
Department here responds very quickly. Ou
Planning Department, for some reason or
another it seems to take a lot of time to
get things through different planners. We
have acted upon it and have now instructed
our in house planner that we hope that as
soon as possible she will be able to take
over the whole planning issues of the
municipality rather than having a
consultant firm. We do not feel, except
for in special cases that the outside
planning consultants are going to be
necessary. Kris Menzies does have the
qualifications to do the whole job.
Bud Arbour:
Once the Act is put in place, do I
understand that it could come up for revie
and be altered or would it be mandatory
that these charges remain for ten years?
vince Dibacco:
As we indicated, the Act stipulates that 0
the end of the 5th year, it must be
updated. However, there is options there
that if what we have done is going off
course, then at the end of every year it
can be revised.
Bud Arbour:
Do you intend to supply water service to
the existing homes in Shanty Bay?
vince Dibacco:
The existing homes will have the option to
tap the source and it will probably be don
through the implementation of a local
improvements charge.
Bud Arbour:
They would be tapping into services that
have been paid for by the subdivisions.
Their money would go into the fund then?
vince Dibacco:
The way it has been calculated is in the
calculation of the Development Charge, it
has been based on new growth only. The no
new growth has been allocated to the
Township. So the Township is going to pay
for a portion of the cost that the existin
population benefit from if they hook up to
the charge. As I indicated, when
" . . ,
vince Dibacoo:
Bud Arbour:
vince Dibacco:
Mrs. Martensson:
Henry Sander:
Deputy Reeve Caldwell:
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eventually the water main is in place I a
sure through the local improvements charge
they will reimburse the municipality for
their share of the costs.
I realize and I think it is very difficult
to arrive at and to estimate what you migh
encounter in drilling new wells. The
existing wells are up to capacity in my
subdivision which I have been working on
for five years. We certainly hope to have
100 lots on 110 acres, therefore, your
hydrologist might very well deem that they
would drill a well on my property. The
trunk line then would be to get real good
water supply there to supply the MSL
Subdivision. So I will not need a trunk
line, will I? At $3,630. for 100 lots tha
will be $363,000. so I feel rather
satisfied that after a couple of years tha
when you get good water supply and the
costs are less, that you are able to look
at it and talk to us.
At this point in time, it is speculation a
to where the well is going to be located,
the number of wells and so on. The
Treasurer is already doing that kind of
forward thinking and is in the process of
receiving proposals to initiate the
preparation of a hydrogeological assessmen
study to try to identify good sources of
water, locations for them, the size of
wells, etc. As we indicated, if the
hydrogeologists findings are as such that
we have to change certain portions of this
report, that can be done in due course as
that revised information becomes available
The report states that you are anticipatin
using the same policing arrangements that
we are at the moment. How close are we to
having the population where we have to
provide our own policing, and if we did,
would it be reflected in the Development
Charges or spread across the entire
assessment?
Basically within the Development Charges
Act, the Township is only able to provide
for services currently in place. As the
police system is currently set up we all
pay through our provincial taxes to have
the O.P.P. run up and down the highway for
us. As such, it is not one item that we
can include within our Development Charges
Act. However, there has been certain
things go on within the County the past
couple years, being the restructuring and
am not so sure that might be one of the
costs that comes out of that at some point
in time.
If three years down the road we are told b
the Province that we had to pay for part 0
the O.P.P. costs because it would be a new
level of service, could we not then sit
down and review our Development Charges
I,. ""
"
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Deputy Reeve Caldwell:
with respect to any new development.
I would suggest that in my opinion it woul
be very much similar to what we are
providing currently with the Library
Services to both Barrie and Orillia.
Because we are still providing just a
contract basis between the two cities, we
do not have a house facility ourselves.
The policing would be the same sort of
situation, as such, we would not be able t
include that as a cost to be included in
our Development Charges.
Henry Sander:
Mrs. Martensson:
If after a few years you found it was
excessive because the road Sections were
not being met, would the people who paid b
subject to a refund?
vince Dibacco:
It all depends, if it is a result of front
ending that the developers are going to do
then there is no need for it because they
are actually paying for the actual costs.
If it is a matter of a levy that has been
paid then there will be some adjustment in
there to reflect those adjustments. It
depends on how the projects are undertaken
Henry Sander:
There are mechanisms basically built into
the Act itself that give developers or
individuals a chance to come forward and b
heard at the appropriate time.
There being no further questions or comments, in closing the
meeting, Reeve Drury thanked all those in attendance for their
participation and advised that Council would consider all matters
before reaching a decision.
MOTION NO.1
Moved by Johnson, seconded by Caldwell
Be it resolved that the deputations made at the Public Meeting
tonight be received for consideration;
and that any written comments with regard to the proposed
Development Charges Rate as presented, be also considered if
received by Friday, November 8, 1991;
and further, that the Township's Consultants and Staff be directed
to review all comments and prepare a final report, to be presented
to Council.
Carried.
MOTION NO.2
Moved by Crawford, seconded by Johnson
Be it resolved that we do now adjourn this Public Meeting
@ 9:20 p.m.
Carried.
/b dt ¿.., \/~hJJl íJs= .
~LERK DARLENE SHOEBRIDGE'