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01 06 1992 Public Minutes 9:35 . , HB CORPORATION 01' HB TOWNSHIP 01' ORO SPECIAL PUBLIC KBftING MONDAY. JANUARY C. 1992 , 9:35 P.M. - COUNCIL CHAKBBRS SIXTH MEETING 1991-1994 COUNCIL The following members of Council were present: Reeve Robert E. Drury Deputy Reeve David Caldwell Councillor Alastair Crawford Councillor Joanne Crokam Councillor Leonard Mortson Also Present Were: Ms. Kris Menzies, Mr. Alan Wayne, Mr. Bob Besse, Mr. Jerry Schnurr, Mr. Bruce Chappell, ute stibbard, G. stibbard, Ms. Dyan Gundert, Mr. Conrad Boffo, Mr. Alf. Alderdice, Ms. Carol Alderdice, Mr. Ron Sommers, Mr. Bill Drury, Mr. Darren Drury, Mr. Stephen Woodrow, Mr. Bruce Clark, Mr. Ivan Clark. Reeve Robert E. Drury declared a possible Conflict of Interest, as the applicant is his brother. Deputy Reeve Caldwell assumed the chair. Deputy Reeve David Caldwell opened the meeting by explaining to those present that this Public Meeting was to receive public comments with respect to a proposed zoning By-Law Amendment, pursuant to provisions of the Planning Act, 1983, section 34 (12). The applicant has applied to rezone certain lands described as Part Lot 14, Concession 1. The rezoning would be to recognize a new residential parcel of land created by consent of the Committee of Adjustment. To date, the Council of the Corporation of the Township of Oro not made a decision on this application, other than proceeding to this Public Meeting. Only after comments are received from the Public, Township Staff and requested Agencies, within the appropriate time period, will council make a decision on this application. Notice of the Public Meeting was mailed out on December 17, 1991, all property owners within 400 feet of the subject lands. Notice the Public Meeting was also placed in both the Barrie Examiner and Orillia Packet on December 17, 1991. Deputy Reeve David Caldwell then asked the Clerk if there had been any correspondence received on this matter. The Clerk responded indicating that no correspondence had been received. The Deputy Reeve then stated that those persons present would be afforded the opportunity of asking questions with respect to the proposed Amendment. He then turned the meeting over to the Planner, Ms. Kris Menzies, to explain the purpose and effect of proposed zoning By-Law Amendment. .4 - 2 - Kris Menzies: In April of 1991, the Committee of Adjustment granted a conditional to the applicant. The property is on Concession 1, Part of Lot 14. The Township policies require that a consent this nature has to go through a rezoning process and that is what the subject of this Public Meeting is this evening. The property is currently designated Agricultural under the Official Plan and zoned Agricultural under the Official The applicant will be maintaining the Official Plan Designation, but on the conditionally severed lot a rezoning to Rural Residential is required under the Township policies. The request is to rezone the property to Rural Residential order to satisfy the condition of consent and it is in compliance with the Township policies. There being no questions or comments, the Deputy Reeve in closing the meeting, thanked those in attendance for their participation advised that Council would consider all matters before reaching a decision. He then advised those present that if they wished to be notified of the passing of the proposed By-law, they should leave their name and address with the Clerk. MOTION NO.1 Moved by Mortson, seconded by Crawford Be it resolved that the Special Public Meeting of Council (Drury, Part of Lot 14, Concession 1) now be adjourned @ 9:40 p.m. ~B/c ~kd~ ERK DARLENE SHOEBRIDGt' '9 .. HB CORPORATION 01' THB TOWNSHIP 01' ORO SPBCIAL PUBLIC KBBTING MONDAY. JANUARY 6. 1992 , 7:00 P.M. - COUNCIL CHAKBBRS FIFTH KBBTING 1'91-1994 COUNCIL The following members of Council were present: Reeve Robert E. Drury Deputy Reeve David Caldwell Councillor Alastair Crawford Councillor Joanne Crokam Councillor Leonard Mortson Also Present Were: Ms. Kris Menzies, Mr. Richard Vandezande, Mr. Marshall Green, Mr. Barry Peyton, Mr. Brian DeBoer, Mr. stan stone, Mr. Mike Bateman, Mrs. Lynda Aiken, ute Stibbard, Stibbard, Mr. Bob Besse, Mr. Ken Holliwes, Ms. Dyan Gundert, Mr. Conrad Boffo, Ms. Fran OlAorn, Mr. Alf Alderdice, Mr. Carol Alderdice, D. Pfremmner, V. C. Guthrie, K. Murray, S. Murray, Mr. Al Nahomay, Mr. Lawson, Ms. Karen Levison, Ms. shirley Chew, Mr. Russ Chew, Mr. Grant Homer, Mr. Jim Oakes, Mr. Dick Crawford, Mr. Brian Eyers, Mr. Ted Bigelow, Ms. Nancy Bigelow Ms. Holly Spacek, Mr. Cecil Arbour, Mr. Andrew Hoffman, Ms. Libby Hoffman, Mrs. Jacquie Besse, Mr. Bud Arbour, Mrs. Arbour, Mrs. Joy Levison, Mr. David Levison, Mr. George Sutton, Mrs. Frances Sutton, Mr. Mark Oakes, Ms. Eleanor Brown Mr. David Brown, Mr. Cam Gibson, Mr. Ian Wilson, Mr. Bob Young, Mr. Jim Reisch, Ms Eileen Anderson, Ms. Karen Sanderson, Mr. Gordon Grant, Mr. Alan Wayne, Mr. Ross Cotton, Mr. Debra Hyland, Mr. Shawn Mr. Bruce Stuart, Mr. Ivan Clark, Mr. Darren Drury, Mr. Allen Blight, R & K Abert, Mr. Ross Manzone, Mrs. Gina Mr. Chuck Tyler, Mr. Bill Drury, Mr. Wakeman, Mr. Stephen Woodrow, Mr. Ron Sommers. Reeve Robert E. Drury chaired the meeting. Reeve Robert E. Drury opened the meeting by explaining to those present that this Public Meeting was to receive public comments respect to a proposed Official Plan and Zoning By-Law Amendments, under sections 17 and 34 of the Planning Act, 1983. The applicant has applied to redesignate and rezone certain lands described as 3, Range 2. The Official Plan would redesignate from the Agricultural and Environmental and Woodlot designations to the Village Community Residential designation. The zoning By-Law Amendment would rezone lands from the Agricultural (A) Zone and the Inherent Hazard Land (OS2) Zone to the General Residential (RG) Zone. - 2 - To date, the Council of the corporation of the Township of Oro have not made a decision on this application, other than proceeding to this Public Meeting. Only after comments are received from the Public, requested agencies and Township Staff, within the appropriate time period, will Council make a decision on this application. Notice of the Public Meeting was mailed out on December 6, 1991, to all property owners within 400 feet of the subject lands. Notice 0 the Public Meeting was also placed in both the Barrie Examiner and Orillia Packet on December 6, 1991. Reeve Robert E. Drury then asked the Clerk if there had been any correspondence received on this matter. The Clerk responded by indicating that the following had been received and read same: 1) 2) Nottawasaga Valley Conservation Authority - requesting deferra at this time; Mary Atkinson - objection re: drainage and impact on wells; The Reeve then stated that those persons present would be afforded the opportunity of asking questions with respect to the proposed Amendments. He then turned the meeting over to the Township Planner, Ms. Kris Menzies, to explain the purpose and effect of the proposed Official Plan and zoning By-Law Amendments. Kris Menzies: Turned the meeting over to the proponents to explain the purpose and effect of the proposed Official Plan and Zoning By-Law Amendments. Marshall Green: (Solicitor for Mr. Arbour,) Just so everybody is aware; this plan has been ongoing now for a couple of years. There has been a couple of plans put forth and they have been the subject of some debate and some studies by the Township an by various others. There was a plan that was proposed to the Township about one yea ago but did not receive a lot of favour; that plan has been reworked. We have with us here today, Mr. Peyton, Reid and Associates, Planning Consultants and Mr. wilson who is our hydrogeologist and who will also be able to answer questions that you might have with respect to water suppl etc. I will now turn the meeting over to Mr. Peyton. I would also like to add that I have asked Mr. Peyton to prepare a summary of Technical Reports and Correspondence with respect to the propose subdivision that have been done to date. (Handed copies of report out to the public.) Barry peyton: The proposed subdivision has been around for considerable time. Mr. Arbour, the developer, approached me about four or fiv years ago to look at it for development, and we did go to a Public Meeting. At tha time the Ministry of Environment was changing their policies and were observing nitrates etc. and it has taken a long time to do the background work and put the stud together. - 3 - peyton: The hand out has a copy of the Draft Plan and it has an itemized description of the various reports done to date for the development. (Mr. Peyton indicated on the map the areas that the Official Plan would redesignate from the Agricultural and Environmental an Woodlot designations to the village Community Residential designation.) As far as the zoning is concerned the pink area would be the only area different from Agriculture and that would be Inherent Hazard Land. The reason being is this is like a holding pond in this area and acts as a detention pond, the water comes down through the valley and ends up sitting there and gradually soaks into the ground. We propose to intercept that water by way of roadside ditches, so we do not anticipate this being a wet area after it is developed. The proposed zoning would b General Residential which is not unlike most of the village of Shanty Bay and that adds certain restrictions on the size of the lots and the frontage of the lots. Th minimum frontage is 23 metres, with a wate system, and this will have a piped water system. All of these lots, the frontage i at least double, at least 46 metres. The minimum area for that same zoning is 1100 square meters; these are triple the minimum area for that zoning. We are not scrimping, we are showing large lots, approximately three quarters of an acre. You may ask how we came up with this layout? You are restricted with the lot sizes, number one. Most of the trees of this property are hardwood trees going dow the edges of the field and we tried to fit them into the back of the lots and save th trees that do exist. There are two park locations shown. (Indicated locations on map.) We have two entrances to the development, the main entrance is a split entrance and there will be an extra wide right-of-way, extra wide road with islands down the middle with trees. Moving away from planning, I would just like to go into a bit of engineering for you. The basic topography of the land as mentioned all drains in this direction, (pointed to map) it is very gentle and forms a valley coming down through here an is fairly steady as there is no tremendous cuts or hills on the property. The bulk 0 the drainage follows the water course down to the lake (indicated on map, course of drainage) going around, West of Shanty Bay (Indicated two other drainage areas on map¡ and that the course of drainage basically did not change.) - 4 - Barry Peyton: The basic lot grading will be to open roadside ditches and we will be carrying the water in generally the same path that the existing drainage went. We will likel be running the water around, increasing th time, it helps the flows. We have not don the engineering yet, it is too early to do that kind of engineering. We have done some of course, in order to put these studies together. There will be no storm sewers. To control the drainage, I had mentioned about the detention ponds and maybe people are beginning to understand what these detention ponds are, however, I will just go through it briefly. This development south of the C.N.R., the Audubon Subdivision, has a detention pond in it right now and is currently working. What the detention pond does is hold the water and releases it slowly. You will have a twelve inch pipe coming out of the pond an if you have a heavy storm the water will back up into the pond and will release it slowly through that twelve inch pipe. At the end of a twenty-four hour period, that pond will be totally dry. The beauty of this location is that you not only have tw detention ponds but you have the railway tracks, and only so much water will go through the culverts going under the railway tracks. The water supply we have always looked at it as being a communal water supply. Ther is two different options that we could take. One is to develop a well on the property and have a pressure system right on the property. I know the Township Engineers have some ideas as far as providing an updated, reworked water suppl to the village of Shanty Bay; either another well adjacent to the water supply pump house and connecting the water mains up to this property. That is the other alternative and I would say it is probably better to go that route. You could bring water main trunk under the railway tracks and right up into the development. I know that was mentioned in the Development Charges Act Study that was recently adopted. If this is the route that we end up going then you would have a much greater, improved water supply system in Shanty Bay. All properties will be serviced individually by Septic Tile Fields. Once again, it is subject to Ministry of the Environment and the Health unit policies. We have a hydrogeologist, Ian wilson, to evaluate the soils and to look at the hydrogeology and to look at the affects on ground water, and he will speak after I finish here. '. - 5 - 1 Green: I would just like to mention, as you can tell, what I think is important with these meetings is that a lot of these reports ar at a fairly preliminary stage and one of the things we hope to gather from this meeting is some input as to what particula people feel are the problems with respect to drainage and water supply. I assume your holding pond is adjacent to park. will that holding pond be fenced of for the protection of children going through that Park? stibbard: Peyton: A five year storm would perhaps drain in approximately two hours time, then becomin bone dry. It is only during a really heav rain fall that you will have water in that pond. It was not planned to put a fence i between; the idea was to have a Park purposely adjacent to it so it can be incorporated into the Park and it can be used as a Park. 1 Green: There are two kinds of drainage ponds: on is a retention pond, where water is there almost all of the time, and those kinds ar generally fenced and there are detention ponds where basically water is detained fo a short period of time to allow it to flow through and those are not usually fenced s that they can be used as recreational spac when they are not under water, because the are usually under water for short periods of time. Gerald stibbard: A three year old kid does not know any better, I think there should be some safeguards. Marshall Green: That would be up to the Township to direct a developer to do. If they feel that the water would be there on any kind of a regular basis, over a particular level, fo any particular period of time, they will order it to be fenced. If the stormwater report comes out indicating that every tim there is a rain more than a sprinkle and there will be two feet of water there, you can be sure the Township will be saying that they want it fenced. If the report comes back and says that once every twenty years there may be six inches of water, then it could be the Township would say we would rather have that open to use as a Park. Ted Bigelow: Who picks up the tab on the communal water system? Marshall Green: The Developer. Shawn Murray: Does anyone else get use of that water system? " - 6 - Marshall Green: If it is larger than necessary, may be others would be able to join the system an I believe the Township's goal is to develo it as an overall system for the Village. What happens when you drill these big well to the surrounding areas? vince Guthrie: Marshall Green: I can tell you from a legal point of view, that it is required by law that we cannot reduce the water supply of anybody else. vince Guthrie: Before the subdivision went in Shanty Bay, I had no problems with my well. One of th first wells they did, effected my well which is one hundred and three feet deep; I had no water between the hours of four o'clock in the afternoon and eleven o'cloc at night. I have spent over $5,000. drilling a new well. I approached the Council about it and they told me that I could go and suck eggs. Now before this goes any further, and Mr. Arbour knows this, I want a guarantee on this subdivision that I am going to be guaranteed water and that I am not going t be flooded with water. Marshall Green: My suggestion to you would be that you hav Mr. wilson check your well if your well is going to be anywhere near the same aquifer Barry Peyton: I have been here for thirty-one years before any house went up in the Village an I also know about the run-off of this wate that you are talking about and I would lik to know where this water is going to go? Is it going through Kruger Subdivision? The route I believe comes down through thi easement (indicated on map). It will go the same place as it goes right now. vince Guthrie: vince Guthrie: The same place it went before, across the railroad tracks, at the back of that property; I know all about the property, my brother-in-law owns it and my sister ha already sent a letter here. I would like some explanation of where this water is going before the subdivision goes any further. Marshall Green: This is where the engineers have at this point, indicated where the water would go. If they are wrong, as I indicated, this is one of the reasons we have these meetings so we can find out if the actual experienc is different. Marshall Green: He don't live there. Bob Drury knows abou where I live and everything about it. We do not want to see any more water come through there than what there is now. It will be controlled to exactly what you have now. vince Gurthrie: ~ - 7 - Guthrie: I've seen controlled in the other two subdivisions by the Fire Hall. I have see water coming down these thirty-six inch culverts at the Shanty Bay Fire Hall and I have seen them flow and flow and two feet of water on the Ridge Road. We told the Township and there would be nobody that would answer the call. You are talking about water control and my thoughts go bac to this when the engineer at that time sai there would be no flow. Bob Drury knows what I am talking about. I want this thin understood, and I do not want to see any water come past my place because I have no water in my ditch now. Reeve Drury: Vince, what we will be doing, if the Township decides to proceed past this meeting this evening, is our engineer will be checking every aspect of the proposal. We are taking your comments into consideration. vince Guthrie: The difference what you put on a piece of drawing is different than what actually happens, I know I am a contractor. You have to address this situation before it goes any further. Reeve Drury: The development that took place twelve or fifteen years ago, the consultants that th municipality had employed for them at the time were not nearly as sophisticated as the ones we have today. I can assure you that when developments do move forward, every nook, corner and crack is looked at. This is what the proponents have brought forward. Our consultants will look at it and if we do decide to move forward it wil be refined and redefined and in a case suc as you are explaining, and I have seen it happen before, where we will send our own engineers down, at the cost of the developer, to review the situation. vince Guthrie: I am not opposed to it but I am just sayin that you should talk to the people and hea their concerns. Alf Alderdice: I live across the road from the proposed subdivision. These detention ponds do not address the problems of the water here. Where the culverts cross at the second line, we have had serious problems since the early 1980's, we have written letters to Council and we have not received one word of reply from Council. I had Mr. Caldwell down and he ensured me that a Township Foreman said water would not come down our property that it would run up hill. Mr. Caldwell came down and witnesse the miracle of water running up hill. I was promised that by August of that year that something would be done, the next yea had passed and nothing was done. What wor do we have of Council that they are going to send engineers in to study this and do it right. - 8 - Guthrie: This is something I want in this subdivision, I am going to make it real plain here. Wherever this subdivision goe and whatever I ask for and what is going t be done here, I want to see it in writing. You are going to protect us, I have seen too much of this stuff, I have been a contractor for too many years, probably before you where even a lawyer and I have seen too many mistakes made here. They watch a subdivision go through and then everybody says, oh well, I am sorry, it wasn't in the subdivision. Whatever goes in this subdivision, what ever I want, wha ever has got to be done, I want it in writing. There is going to be no fooling around. If it doesn't go in writing then the subdivision is not going, I will shove it into the O.M.B. Board and not only that Bob, I have the right to do it because whe this thing started off the board, by law you have to sent me a letter saying that this subdivision is in the making which yo people never did. Bud Arbour knows it. I let it pass and you said to me that we put it in the paper. You do not have the righ to tell me that I got to buy a paper to find out what is going on in the Township. The point is, I will go along with whateve is going on here, but whatever goes, and I am not knocking Bud Arbour, he is a friend of mine, but it will have to be in writing If my well goes down or there is any damag to my property then all hell is going to brake loose here and somebody is going to pay for it. Bob Drury: If you could put it in writing to us so we will be able to respond. vince Guthrie: Are you putting in the minutes, what I said? Bob Drury: Yes, it is being recorded, but I will also ask for it to come by way of letter. Barry Peyton: Where does the Provincial Government stand with the loss of Agricultural land? We have been in touch with the Ministry of Agriculture with regard to this development, several times. At this point there position is, if the Township is willing to accept this portion of property as a development to add it onto the Community of Shanty Bay, then their concer would not be very great. However, if they don't, then we are in for a fight. If the Township will not support us, then we woul have a very hard time with the Ministry of Agriculture. We may have to do a Agriculture Justification Study in order t satisfy the Ministry and that is a study that says that these lots are needed withi the community. We do not know at this point. They have not come out and said no but they have not said yes either. Carol Alderdice: - 9 - 1 Green: The Province protects Agricultural land they have a policy that says that but I think they also look at the point, if the Township feels there is a logical of the Village, they would rather have a subdivision here than to have it in the middle of somewhere. Carol Alderdice: If they do approve this, then how much other Agriculture land are they prepared give up? Robert Drury: We will be reviewing that on our Official Plan Review and Update which we have been currently undergoing for almost two years now. There will be an opportunity for Public input and at least one more Public Meeting and we will be putting this on our new document, whatever decision Council does make on it. Carol Alderdice: will that be before or after the approval of this. Robert Drury: I have no way of telling because it will take us probably six months to have our Official Plan approved and from there it will be sent to the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and that could take a year or so actually stamp and approve it. Carol Alderdice: There is a major Restructuring Meeting a week from today at the County with the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I think will have very little impact at this and I am very doubtful that this subdivision would have approval before restructuring takes place. How does this affect your right to farm? Carol Alderdice: Where do we stand with restructuring, would only make the Village of Shanty Bay one more reason for it to be attractive Barrie. Robert Drury: Robert Drury: The Province of ontario's right to farm legislation that is in now, I believe wi protect farmers to farm in proper and normal manners. Alf Alderdice: If my neighbour spreads manure and I live close to this subdivision and can smell is this considered normal farm practice? Robert Drury: Yes. David Levison: I farm right next door and I wonder if there would be any consideration to put on title, the right to farm in that area? Marshall Green: What goes into the Subdivision Agreement and gets on title is totally up to the Township. If I was to advise Mr. Arbour, would not have any problem with that. Registry Office takes a dim view of these kinds of things getting on title because they do not think they have any weight - 10 - Green: they do not like putting extra clauses on title. David Levison: Just a comment on the farms near Barrie, I think probably, dairy farms that we have i this area are the least intense from Agriculture compared to pig and beef cattle, so it should not cause problems. Joy Levison: I have seen in other municipalities in the Subdivision Agreements, warnings, and I think rather than putting it on title, tha it go into the Subdivision Agreement and that it be required to be part of the Agreement of Purchase and Sale. Marshall Green: I would have no problem recommending to Mr Arbour that he puts those in, if the Township feels that is appropriate. Joy Levison: The particular clause that I saw was a warning that the people that bought there might not be able to have their children attend school there because of the shortag of school places. Now I notice that the Board of Education has been served here an has responded saying we will get forty two children. That translates to a classroom and a half, in addition to our already overcrowded school. I know that the council has always taken the position that it is not a planning consideration, but I can tell you it is definitely a community consideration. I think that the lack of school facilities should be a consideration. I was wondering what you were doing regarding schools. Holly Spacek: (Planner with the Simcoe County Board of Education) The schools in Oro Township are either at or above capacity right now. We have put in for funding. Shanty Bay School is on municipal water. The Board has a Reasonable Use Policy, put forth by the Ministry of the Environment, which a minimum of thirty acres is needed if not 0 a sewer system. All rural schools not on municipal sewer systems is going to be difficult for us to put additions on, we d not know at this point if we can go ahead or not. We will not object to this subdivision development at this point in time but I should make Council and members of the Public aware that the lot numbers have been reduced from 124 to 100, that would drop what we thought we were getting from the subdivision, from forty-two elementary children to thirty-six. But even so, that along with other developments, currently proposed for this Township, we are looking at putting more portables in Shanty Bay and we are doing a assessment of all the Townships and all th schools in this Township and we are waitin to hear from the Ministry of the Environment as to what we can or cannot do - 11 - JOy Levison: We can handle the kids that com~ out o~ th subdivision but whether they w111 be 1n portables, ~r a school outside of Oro Township, we cannot say at,the moment. If that is the situation of k1ds that have to go out of Oro Township, then we would ask the developer to put in a clause in the purchase and Sale stating this, so that th buyers are aware. Would it be only the new residents that would have their children bused out. Holly spacek: Bruce Clark: Yes. I live on the third concession of Oro and my brother also farms on the second concession of Oro. I think we really do have to take a look at the Agriculture perspective on this development.. My . understanding is that most of th1s farm 1S1 A2 land which in Agriculture is in classes between one and seven and A2 is near the top. It is one thing to ensure the farmer the right to farm and it is another thing to give them some land to farm.. I think I you have to look at the boundar1es of i Shanty Bay and where you want them to be. It seems to me that the CNR track is aver natural boundary. The way the land is use at the present time acts as a very good buffer between the Village of Shanty Bay and the first livestock operation of the concession. I can see the heavier traffic concerns from the urban people already. I happen to have a hog farm which is more intense than the dairy industry and obviously these farms are going to continu to get larger. We are right on the edge 0 one of Oro's best Agricultural areas and I think it needs to have some serious hard look at it before we jump the tracks and build on the other side. Holly spacek: Karen Sanderson: I would like to address the question of making a decision on the number of lots. We are not just looking at 100 lots, what we are really looking at is 180 lots because we have 80 odd lots down on the third. Carol Alderdice: At the intersection of the Shanty Bay Road and Line 2, have there been any traffic studies done? Barry Peyton: No, not at the present. the engineering report. It will be part 0 Marshall Green: The Township could and likely will order such a study. Carol Alderdice: If it means purchasing property in order t rectify the problem there, who foots the bill for that? Marshall Green: There is only one person and that is the Developer. - 12 - Alderdice: I suggest that you take a look at that intersection. Brown: I live on Bay street in Shanty Bay. What consideration has Council given to the repercussions, not only with the schools and education, but also with traffic, the width of the roads, police, fire, and othe expenses that are going to ensue from this development and other developments. If this one goes through and the one on the third, they are not the last, it is going to be an ongoing thing as the years go by. I think we should start to address some of these problems now and not wait until ther is a crisis. Drury: That is why this Public Meeting is called tonight, so we can hear of all the concern and problems that may arise in this development, before making a decision. Green: A couple of things that were mentioned there are financial type of impact which 0 course are covered in the Development Charges. New development is suppose to no create a burden on the existing tax payers Shawn Murray: Your engineers have already admitted that there will be no serious effects to our well water, can you give us a definition 0 not serious? Ian wilson: There are two aspects and one is the actua water use at the subdivision and its potential of affecting other well supplies The other one is of course the contamination from septic systems. Under the Ministry of the Environment, Reasonabl Use Policy, no subdivision is allowed to contaminate the water at its property boundaries beyond the drinking water objectives. To put that simply, at the edge of any development, a person would be able to dig a hole in the ground and drink that water. This governs the number of lots that can be within that subdivision. You are not allowed to have any kind of development, whether it be a school, subdivision, etc. that will increase nitrate above ten milligrams per litre. W do a serious of calculations to determine this and it depends on a number of different things, such as soils, precipitation, infiltration of precipitation, etc. These calculations go in a form of a report to the Ministry of the Environment and the Ministry of the Environment scrutinizes that and I mean scrutinizes. Alan Wayne: Regarding nitrates, the wells that you hav tested, are they dug or drilled wells and at what depth? - 13 - Ian wilson: They were drilled wells that we tested, well over one hundred feet, one was one hundred and thirty three feet. Reeve Drury: I have a question for Karen Sanderson. A couple of years ago you asked my to give you a couple dozen bottles to test the wells in Shanty Bay; how did those tests come out? Karen Sanderson: (Tape was not at all legible.) Reeve Drury: I understand the Simcoe County Health unit will test for nitrates for nothing, but I think you have to be pregnant. Dyan Gundert: A problem I am quite concerned about, a fe people have phoned the Township, others have written letters, with no answer. People are quite concerned that you don't answer back to certain problems. Reeve Drury: Could you bring those specific letters forward so that I know who you are referring to. Dyan Gundert: These gentlemen here in particular, said i the past they have written letters and mad phone calls and they have not been contacted. Reeve Drury: I am not aware of any correspondence that has come into this municipality that is no responded to. If it is signed, it is responded to. If it is not signed, it goe in the garbage. Dyan Gundert: Another concern I have, is I was reading the letter from the Nottawasaga Valley Conservation Authority and it says "The Conservation Authority has no concern with this development if no flows are to be directed into our watershed. If flows are to be directed into our watershed, we coul have major concerns with the development and therefore, would wish to comment on th proposal." How can you guarantee us of this? Reeve Drury: It will not be approved until we have thei approval. Ian Wilson: Another concern was you have here the dept of the water level and you took it in February and March which is extremely earl spring. Water levels are not really showing until about April or May and it said it would be slightly higher in late Spring. Why did you take your water level in February/March? You are talking about the soils? Dyan Gundert: Dyan Gundert: Yes. - 14 - Ian wilson: It is normal to take it in the early Spring. Sometimes we have to take it at other times and go back again. That water level and soils work was done for the Simcoe County District Health unit. It is really a question of what kind of septic beds will go in on that particular lot. I other words if the water table is high the that bed has to be brought up. Those test strips were dug with a representative from the County Health Unit, and if this thing goes ahead, they can and probably will require, to have additional test strips du at various locations within the subdivisio in order to determine where the septic til will be laid in the ground. In other word you cannot put the tile in water, obviously, so if the water is a little higher than what we show then it will have to be built up. Bob Young: I live in the Audubon Subdivision and I am new to this process myself. What happens with this meeting, where do you go from here? Reeve Drury: If the municipality decides to turn this proposal down after weighing everything we have heard this evening and conferring wit the consultants on it, then the Developer has the right to take it to the ontario Municipal Board for a decision. If the Municipality decides to support this, we will look at all the items that have been brought forward this evening and make sure all the correct procedures are followed so there will not be any problems Bob Young: One of the things I would like to point ou is if I had my druthers, I would not make any changes at all to Shanty Bay. I would like to see it stay exactly as it is. I guess coming from the Southern part of ontario and seeing the rapid growth down there. I don't think that will happen here, I think Shanty Bay is going to grow. I think what this subdivision offers, in terms of walks and basic layout is called growth. I am happy with the 3/4 of an acr lots. I live in a subdivision that is jus that way, so I don't have any complaints. I like having people close to me but they are certainly not on top of me. We don't have any problem with the detention pond. Now I certainly do have some concerns. With three kids in school in Shanty Bay, I certainly don't want to see portables ther and I think that is something that has to be addressed. But I think it is going to be addressed and I hope that is what Council is telling me. But I have to put some faith in Council and I have to put faith in the Developer's Engineering team and so on and so forth. The key thing to look at here is not to rule something like this out because there are factors that ca be controlled. - 15 - Jim Reisch: You mentioned that there would be open ditch run-offs. We had two rather large subdivisions that were built twelve or fifteen years ago and those ditches had to be filled in because they had become full of stagnant water of about two and a half feet deep. This was very expensive to the Township and was also very noxious and dangerous. Is there any reason why there could not be a piped storm sewer system, other than cost of course? Barry Peyton: Definitely cost is the major factor there. Usually you get into a storm sewer system when you are into a bowling terrain, not s much a flatter terrain, so as you get the proper flow. I know the subdivisions you are referring to and in fact have lived in one myself. At that time when that was built they did not incorporate detention ponds, this has since been refined storm water, not just for quantity but for quality now. Jim Reisch: will the Township again have to fill the ditches in? Barry peyton: No, there will be no reason for them to fill the ditches in. Marshall Green: Two to three years after the Township's Engineers have certified that everything i complete, there is a waiting period during which the Township holds Developer Securit and if things do not go according to plan then it would have to be fixed. Barry Peyton: I believe the subdivisions you were talkin about were down in here. (pointed locatio on map) Jim Reisch: Yes. Barry Peyton: The kind of water shed you are looking at there is way greater than what you are looking at over here. You are at the top end of a water shed here. If it is designed properly it will not happen in this subdivision. We have designed a lot of subdivisions and it is unusual to see a ditch back up like that. We have to satisfy the Township as Engineers, we have to satisfy the Township Engineers, the Ministry of the Environment and Ministry 0 Natural Resources. Bob Drury: The Municipality, once we approve a subdivision, that is probably one of the top priorities we have is drainage. Where is the water going again? Karen Sanderson: Barry peyton: Vince Guthrie: (Reference to map made.) (Discussion took place with Mr. Peyton as to what properties and where exactly the water came down various locations in Shant Bay.) - 16 - Carol Alderdice: Who are the Township's Engineers at this time? Reeve Drury: Carol Alderdice: Reeve Drury: Brian Ayers: R. G. Robinson and Associates Is that different than the one the Developer is using? Yes. We will be getting two opinions. I believe someone asked earlier if there were any nitrate levels taken South of the ones that were taken, and you never answered them. Were there any taken? Ian wilson: There has been one taken on the property and one North. We have not taken any Sout because it is not at the right stage. Whe it is at the right stage there will be one taken. There will be further sampling again, the sampling we did was preliminary in where we are trying to establish whethe it is feasible at all for the subdivision. Brian Ayers: I think that it is important that it be checked before going any further. Alf Alderdice: We live directly across the road and our well is an auger well and is thirty-seven feet deep. I cannot tell you the exact figure but it is around nine. We asked about the quality of the water and it was stated, I certainly would not recommend giving it to youngsters, it should be boiled before we drink it. What my concer is this nitrate level came from farmers putting fertilizers on the fields around there. Now we are going to put one hundre septic beds in there and how soon is it going to take for that to get into our wells? Ian Wilson: We did not sample your well so I cannot tell you how it was done, if it was done i the Lab or whether it was done in the office. In general, the ground water is going to be moving in this direction (indicated on map) it will be moving away from you, so you will have no impact at al from the Subdivision. Ian Wilson: When the pollutants go through the ground and into the well, what is going to stop the pollutants from these septic beds. It will not move in your direction. The ground water moves towards the Great Lake System. I think if you asked the Ministry of the Environment or another hydrogeologist, I think they will tell you the same thing. Alf Alderdice: Brian Ayers: with regard to schooling again, how do you arrive at your calculations for the hundre houses? - 17 - spacek: Based on the Ministry of Revenue Assessmen information on whether how many houses are Public School supporters and how many Separate School supporters and we then determine a yield factor from that. Ayers: I would like to express my concern to Council on that; portables is not the answer. I do not want my children in portables. I was not aware of the subdivision on the 3rd and I can see more and more portables coming. I think it is something that should be addressed before the subdivision goes in and the schools added on to before you drop another twenty portables in. Take a look at the overall plans, Oro is growing, and those issues should be addressed before giving approval to subdivisions. Put some plans in action a head of time. Drury: The subdivision to the east, there has bee no number of lots approved there yet? The proponent was proposing 68 or 78 lots and we sent it back to them and all we will allow is whatever the Ministry of the Environment will allow through the Reasonable Use Policy. Brown: Everyone is speaking about that we do not have to worry about the water because it i going to go to the Lake, but what is it going to do to the Lake? Ian wilson: This of course is a big concern with the Ministry of the Environment and this Reasonable Use Policy takes this into account. I can not really tell you much more than that except that of course the Great Lakes System is flushing itself. There is a lot of precipitation and precipitation does not contain any nitrate and they in their studies concluded that this is acceptable. Jacquie Besse: My understanding about open ditches is tha they actually help in the dilution of the affluent etc. Ian wilson: Certainly, it does cleanse the storm water to some degree. Jacquie Besse: Whenever a developer starts a project such as this, I guess one of the first things you have to do is a hydrogeology preliminary study based on facts and figures from the M.O.E, M.N.R. and so on will give them an idea of how many lots th land will support. Do you know off hand from the preliminary study how many lots this land will support. Ian wilson: We have concluded one hundred lots from on hundred and eighty. On August 6, 1991 new policies and guidelines came out from the Ministry of the Environment. Now any projects that were in the mill prior to that, they go under the guidelines as of - 18 - Wilson: June 30, 1989. So they will be reviewed under those guidelines. The only difference between the two is that the guidelines do not allow us to use the volume of water flowing through. Gundert: It was stated preserve most My concern is and bull doze would like to that the developer will of the trees of the property that most developers go in them all in. I personally see more trees left. wilson: We are not talking most developers here, Mr. Arbour owns a tree farm and planted most of the trees himself. It was his instructions to me to put a plan on the subdivision that protected most of the trees and that is why we ended up protecting all the mature maples along road. We are going out of our way to protect them, who wants a bald subdivision Under the engineering standards for the Township there is a requirement for planting trees on lots. 1 Green: Most municipalities now require before excavation is done at all that there be a tree inventory. Debbie Hyland: (Could not decipher what she said, must have been speaking at the microphone.) conrad Boffo: Here is a hundred lot subdivision, should there not be a representative from the Ministry of the Environment here so that could have a chance to question? Ian wilson: This is an information meeting so that your concerns will be noted and looked at. My function is to look at the subdivision and come forth with my opinion. May be are right and the Ministry of the Environment should have somebody here. rest assured, because I say so does not mean it is going to be so, my work is absolutely scrutinized by the Ministry of Environment under two processes. Cam Gibson: How would you handle rear lot grading in preservation of existing hedge rows when standard engineering practices does not allow you to drain onto somebody elses property when your general over land flow is across from top right to bottom left. So instead of engineering practices under subdivision agreement, the rear lots be altered grade wise, severely to accommodate internal drainage per lot, therefore, you would probably end up eliminating a lot of the hedge rows. Barry peyton: I disagree, I do not think the rear lots will be altered to that degree. You can design around that. Cam Gibson: The hazard lands, the wet areas of the subdivision goes right through, so generally that land is wiped out. - 19 - peyton: I wouldn't say that. Gibson: I think the lady over here voiced a about existing vegetation. I think it is important that the hedge rows are looked much more intensely, along with the rear grading applications and not applying standard engineering principles to get water from Lot 50 to Lot 40. I think you have to analyze the character that Shanty Bay is. I think the down fal of modern planning principles or engineering principles is that we take cookie cutter approach to planning and design. What is the character of Shanty Bay and what are the positives and negatives of that attitude? Can that character under the modern planning be built into a subdivision for 80 lots or 7 lots or 100 lots. peyton: This is going to be phased, obviously our economy can not handle one hundred lots the market tomorrow. When we do the engineering we are going to keep that in mind. The lots are three hundred feet and we have room for grading. We have a developer who knows his trees and he is going to do his utmost to protect them. Cam Gibson: Any calculations done with regards to swimming pools; backwash, ground water, etc. Ian Wilson: No. Bob Young: I am just curious, but Mr. Arbour has the right at this point in time, if he so desires, to cut down every tree that is his property; could he do that? Bob Young: The County of Simcoe have a tree cutting By-Law. The trees that he has planted as nursery stock, I guess if he wants to them out that is his privilege. We look at lot size and basic layout, but we keep coming back to the same concerns and the bottom line is that the people sitting in front of us have the responsibility to ensure that the subdivision will not go through unless these concerns are dealt with. We are minutes this side of Barrie and we are going to grow and so if we are going to grow lets take advantage of quality These lots are going to be three quarters of an acre, not fifty foot front lots by one hundred feet deep; that is when you have problems with growth. Robert Drury: Reeve Drury: The Provincial Government commissioned Sewell, former Mayor of Toronto to do a study of the Planning Act and one of his recommendations in it was in 1996 there will be no more rural development. The lowest density would be fifteen lots per - 20 - Reeve Drury: acre. We feel in this municipality that this does take place then there is only thing that will happen and that is that taxes are going to go up, so it is certainly a concern that we have. Dyan Gundert: with regards to the Draft Plan, are going to be able to come to another Meeting or is this our night? Reeve Drury: The is the night for both yourselves and Council to review all the comments and Draft Plan and if in fact you do have concerns you wish to have addressed further, then Council is hoping you will come forward and make a delegation concerning the proposed subdivision. Marshall Green: I just want to thank Council for giving such a good hearing. This is not just a Public Information Meeting, I look at it a Proponent Information Meeting as well. The comments have been very very good, have been polite and very informative; thank you very much. I encourage you to put the things in writing. The concerns are mainly engineering and I know they be dealt with and will be dealt with. There being no further questions or comments, the Reeve in closing the meeting, thanked those in attendance for their participation advised that Council would consider all matters before reaching a decision. He then advised those present that if they wished to be notified of the passing of the proposed By-law, they should leave their name and address with the Clerk. MOTION NO.1 Moved by Crokam, seconded by Caldwell Be it resolved that the Special Public Meeting of Council (Arbour, Part of Lot 3, Range 2) now be adjourned @ 9:10 p.m. AA~.,.ú / ¡'<bh~?- ' ~ERK DARLENE SHOEBRIDGE