07 08 1992 Public Minutes
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THB CORPORATION 01' THB TOWNSHIP 01' ORO
SPBCIAL PUBLIC KBBTING
WEDNESDAY, JULY 8, 1992
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7:00 P.M. - COUNCIL CHAMBERS
THIRTY-SEVENTH MBBTING 1991-1994 COUNCIL
The following members of Council were present:
Reeve Robert E. Drury
Deputy Reeve David Caldwell
Councillor Alastair Crawford
Councillor Leonard Mortson
Absent:
Councillor Joanne Crokam
Also Present Were:
Ms. Kris Menzies, Mr. John Hare, Mr.
Bud Arbour, Mr. Stephen Woodrow, Ms.
Shirley Woodrow, Mr. John Hutchison,
Mr. Hans Waldvogel, Mr. Mike Fan, Ms.
Iris Fan, Ms. Birgit Atkinson, Mr. Do
Atkinson, Mr. Alan Wayne, Mr. Conrad
Boffo, Mr. Bill Stonkus, Mr. Neil
McNiven, Mr. Garth Daniels, O. Cuzuk,
Geldo Papa, Mr. Patrick Capobianco,
Mr. victor DeMartini, Mr. Rick Topham
Ms. Sandy Topham, Ms. Margaret Prokof
Mr. Karel Prokof, Mr. Peter A.
Douglas, Ms. Jane Tremblay, Mr. Wayne
Neal, Ms. Diane Neal, Ms. Madeline A.
Richard, Ms. Gail Wynn, Mr. Wayne
Wynn, Mr. Jim Martin, Mr. Jack Miller
Ms. Valerie Miller and One Member of
the Press.
Reeve Robert E. Drury chaired the meeting.
Reeve Robert E. Drury opened the meeting by explaining to those
present that this Public Meeting was to receive public comments wit
respect to a proposed Official Plan and Zoning By-Law Amendment,
under sections 17 and 34 of the Planning Act, 1983. The applicant
has applied to redesignate and rezone certain lands described as
Part of Lot 3, Concession 7, (Capobianco).
To date, the Council of the Corporation of the Township of Oro have
not made a decision on this application, other than proceeding to
this Public Meeting. Only after comments are received from the
Public, requested agencies and Township Staff, within the
appropriate time period, will Council make a decision on this
application.
Notice of the Public Meeting was mailed out on June 19, 1992, to al
property owners within 400 feet of the subject lands. Notice of the
Public Meeting was also placed in both the Barrie Examiner and the
Orillia Packet and Times on June 19, 1992.
Reeve Robert E. Drury then asked the Clerk if there had been any
correspondence received on this matter. The Clerk responded by
indicating that two letters had been received; one from the
Nottawasaga Valley Conservation Authority, stating it was outside
their watershed jurisdiction and one from the Simcoe County Distric
Health Unit, stating they could not support the amendments as areas
have been identified to have slopes exceeding 15%.
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The Reeve then stated that those persons present would be afforded
the opportunity of asking questions with respect to the proposed
Amendments. He then turned the meeting over to the Township
Planner, Ms. Kris Menzies, to explain the purpose and effect of the
proposed Official Plan and Zoning By-Law Amendment.
Kris Menzies:
The purpose of the meeting this evening is
to afford Council the opportunity to hear
any public comment in regards to the
proposal before Council. The request is a
amendment to the Official Plan from the
current designation which is Rural to a
site Specific Resort Area designation. Th
Site specific element is to permit year
round Residential Use of the properties of
the lots which are being proposed. The
second portion of the Public Meeting is to
consider a rezoning of the lands from a
Rural Zone to three zones, that includes,
General Residential whereby homes would be
located, Recreation and Open Space which
would allow for essentially parkland and
open space and a Resort Commercial C-3 Zon
in order to allow certain types of
commercial uses to be located. One of the
reasons for the request for the Official
Plan Amendment and the Rezoning is to
permit a one hundred and sixty-four lot,
single unit Plan of Subdivision. I believ
Mr. Robert Lehman from Lehman and
Associates is here and might be able to
afford the public some more site specific
information.
Robert Lehman:
As the Township Planner mentioned, the
proposal is to redesignate some lands, the
lie between Concession 6 and 7, immediatel
South of the existing Sugarbush III
Subdivision. The proposal as it stands no
is for one hundred and sixty-four lots.
That is based on a hydrogeological study
using the existing Ministry of the
Environment regulations and criteria. We
are awaiting new regulations and criteria
to be announced and the number of lots may
decline if those regulations are more
stringent. The one hundred and sixty-four
is a maximum number and when the new
regulations come out we may have to revise
the plan and scale it down somewhat.
The proposal as shown on here, (indicated
on map) the yellow areas would be for
individual lots for single family homes an
the green areas would be the open space
network which has been designed to link
into the existing open space network in
Sugarbush. Similarly to the other
subdivision there is an exterior block all
the way around which would also be
designated as open space. The style of th
subdivision if you wish is very similar to
that which exists already in the area. Th
minimum lot size would be .5 acres or just
over 20,000 square feet. The average lot
size would be .64 acres throughout the
whole subdivision. The open space
represents about 13% of the area of
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Robert Lehman:
all of the lands. The trails have a
minimum width of ten metres or about
thirty-six feet. The road network is also
integrated with that of the existing
Sugarbush subdivision. Sugarbush Road, as
it now has a road allowance that extends t
the end of the property and presume was
intended and designed originally to extend
through and will continue through the 7th
Line, providing an access from one line to
the other. Similarly there would be an
entrance further South than the existing
development, which would come in and then
loop through and connect through to here a
well. (indicated on map) As each of the
other subdivisions have been designed,
there would also be allowance for
connections to the South and North if ther
was a need for future road connections in
the area.
It is also proposed to have a small
neighbourhood commercial site located at
the intersection of Sugarbush Road and the
7th Line, just over an acre in size which
would allow something probably in the orde
of a ten to twenty thousand square foot
plaza, which is a three or four store
plaza, at the very most.
The servicing would be based on connection
to the existing communal system with well
sources from this property as well, in
addition to the existing well sources.
(Indicated on map) There would be a singl
supply and distribution system for the
entire community.
We have undertaken the hydrogeological
study and test fitting has been conducted
quite extensively and has confirmed that
the water sources underneath this property
as they are for much of the area, are very
substantial, far, far in excess of what
will be required for this proposed
development. We are also aware of the
Health unit's concerns and we are aware of
the need that we may be required to site
the septic beds for each lot individually.
As the Health unit did mention, there are
few wet areas and there are some slopes an
we have done this in the past and are ofte
required to site two different septic beds
on each property on an area that is level
enough to meet the Health unit's standards
and high and dry enough to be used for the
purpose that they are proposed for.
The last comment that I would make is that
we have had a couple of meetings and
several discussions with the local
ratepayers; the Indian Park Association,
understand they will also make some
statements here tonight as well.
Mike Fair:
What are the plans for extending the 6th
Line, North of Huronwoods Road or are ther
plans?
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Robert Lehman:
Not that I am aware of, No.
Mike Fair:
What will happen to and I don't know the
name of the road, it is the second road in
Sugarbush at the bottom of the map, does i
just come to a dead end? (Indicated on map
Robert Lehman:
No, this would have to be extended as part
of this development.
Mike Fair:
Are you people developing that?
Robert Lehman:
That would be a matter of negotiation with
the Township as to who would pay the cost
of that.
Mike Fair:
Would it be paved as the existing 6th Line
is now?
Robert Lehman:
Yes.
Mike Fair:
It would end at that particular road?
Robert Lehman:
If the Township wanted to carry it further
that would be up to them but I think
normally the procedure is that the abuttin
developer pays for the land that is
required.
Mike Fair:
My property abuts on the 6th Line
extension, if you will, and my concern is
of course if the road is going to be
running right at the back of our houses.
The green area that you have by the yellow
is a minimum of 30 metres?
Robert Lehman:
Ten metres.
Robert Drury:
Just to clarify, the municipality has no
intention of extending that road any
further, in case you are worrying about it
being a through road.
Madeline Richard:
I am President of the Indian Park
Association and I am here to speak on
behalf of our Board of Directors of the
community. The members of the Board of
Indian Park Association has reviewed the
proposal and as you know the proposal
borders on Sugarbush property. We have
some concerns. Although the developer has
submitted a proposal that is consistent
with the recreational concept utilitized i
Sugarbush and authorized by the Township
which incorporates open space and minimize
the loss of trees. Any such development 0
this size, will obviously have an enormous
impact on the existing Sugarbush community
and the self contained life style of its
residents. Our initial review of the
document has raised the following areas of
concern:
1)
The impact of the proposed developmen
on the water supply and distribution
system;
The extension of Sugarbush Road and
2)
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3)
the 6th Line which will in our opinio
increase traffic flow and have an
impact on both the safety and securit
of Sugarbush;
The interrelationship between the two
communities, including but not limite
to the use of recreational facilities
which are wholly owned and maintained
by Sugarbush or Indian Park.
Madeline Richard:
Regarding this proposal, the Board has
established a sub-committee which will be
studying the development proposal further.
This committee will be responsible for
informing our membership at large and be
meeting with the developer to discuss area
of concern. with the potential for other
developments adjacent to Sugarbush and
along the Horseshoe Valley corridor, our
response to this development proposal will
ultimately be made in the context of the
longer term development picture. We trust
that the Township and the Developer will
consider the needs and concerns of
Sugarbush in the planning process and work
with us so that any development in the are
does not destroy the natural environment
drastically or drastically alter the life
style of Sugarbush.
In closing, we respectively request that w
be kept informed regarding the progress of
the proposed development.
Robert Lehman:
We have a report, which if you do not have
we can get to you, which deals with the
water supply issue. There was extensive
testing done with respect to the water
supply and I am sure it is a concern to
everybody.
with respect to the connection to the 6th
Line, that is something that provides a
benefit to all, although it is certainly
not necessarily in the developers interest
to put the road through.
Bob Drury:
I think Mr. Lehman you are confusing the
7th Line with the 6th Line.
Robert Lehman:
Yes, I'm sorry.
With respect to the use of the recreationa
facilities, nothing that would be occurrin
on this property would affect any of the
legal arrangements that you already have
with respect to the use of your own open
space and we would presume that nobody
could use it other than the owners.
Peter Douglas:
I am a resident in the Sugarbush, Phase
III, Subdivision; I reside on Lot 38 on
Sugarbush Road. I would like to say that
support everything that the representative
of the Indian Park Association has
submitted to Council. I share the concern
expressed and I would like you to know as
well that I am encouraged by the comment
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Peter Douglas:
made by Mr. Lehman that it is still an
option that the road connection entering
into the existing subdivision, not
necessarily be made. I reside a couple
blocks into and West of that proposed
connection and I am concerned about the
traffic flow that might result from that
connection. I do not see any practical
purpose for it and quite frankly I am
concerned about the increased use of the
privately owned recreational facilities
that might result from that connection. I
am concerned for the safety of the childre
on that street.
John Hare:
Lot 2. One thing you never mentioned
anything about water.
Robert Lehman:
We have conducted a hydrogeological study
and there is flows far is excess what is
necessary to service this subdivision. It
is intended that this will be a communal
water system linked into the existing
Sugarbush system.
John Hare:
There is quite a thing on the gravel pits
below you and the gravel trucks are going
to be going North and South which could be
detrimental if you bring your subdivision
out on that road. Also, the drainage of
your land is bound to go North and East so
that will definitely go down in the Coulso
Swamp. I have been told that there are
Indian Burial Grounds on the old McArthur
property, are you aware of this?
Robert Lehman:
I have dealt a fair bit with this issue on
other properties and the Ministry of
Culture and Communications keeps a registe
of all sites where they are aware that
there are any artifacts or remains and
there are none on this property that they
are aware of. Certainly if anybody has an
factual knowledge or any articles, please
give them to us, we would rather have them
sooner rather than later. The only other
thing I can say is that usually any Indian
sites of any size was adjacent or
relatively close to a water source.
Reeve Drury:
I would just like to respond to the commen
that was made on the gravel pits and the
trucks. The haul route goes from the Nort
part of the pit, Southerly on Highway 11,
it does not go North. The local deliverie
could come up the 7th Line. The agreement
that is in place or will be in place when
the Board finally makes their decision,
will make a provision that any more than
ten deliveries per day that goes North and
not on the haul route, has to be done with
special agreement with the municipality.
So it is not a haul route where this
development is.
Garth Daniels:
How many school children will the
subdivision bring and how much will it
raise our taxes? I believe we are assesse
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Garth Daniels:
in Oro Township by the Board of Education
by the number of children that we supply t
their school system. So I would assume
that each additional child that we bring i
will affect all of our taxes. Can you tel
me how much it may affect each individual
person?
Robert Lehman:
I can tell you that the amount you pay the
School Board is not based on how many
children that come from Oro Township. The
proportion of your assessment is on a
County wide basis, on a School Board basis
that is. Say you have in Oro 11% of the
total County assessment then you pay 11% 0
the cost. The more children there are
across the County, the more cost there is.
You could have half of the school children
in the whole County in Oro Township and yo
would not be paying half the cost. As for
the number of school children in the
subdivision; there will be one hundred an
sixty-four homes and the Simcoe County
Board of Education are currently using a
figure of one to one and one half children
per house. So you would be looking at one
hundred and fifty to two hundred kids at
the maximum.
Garth Daniels:
Another point of concern, it is an
observation, but I believe legislation is
in place that will be going through
shortly, is that every householder will be
able to build an apartment in their
basement or put a granny flat on their
property. It says that a lot of them will
be built right into the houses at the time
they are constructed. So in theory,
instead of one hundred and sixty four
units, you could have well over three
hundred. That is a possibility is it not?
Robert Lehman:
I think in theory, but in practicality I d
not think you will find families moving
into what would be basically one bedroom
apartments.
Jeff stewart:
R.R. #4, Coldwater.
Has there been any impact studies on
traffic or any environmental impact on the
entire area or is that still in the works?
Robert Lehman:
We have looked at environmental impact on
the storm water drainage, the ability for
the soil to accommodate septic beds and th
draw on the water table. We have looked a
the impact also in terms of identifying an
areas that are considered sensitive. In
terms of traffic, we did not feel a traffi
study was warranted because the existing
roads, a two lane road can accommodate
hundreds of vehicles an hour.
Reeve Drury:
Thank you for your comments. One of the
concerns that the municipality has and why
the link is showing there, is the
municipality suggested that link to perhap
take some of the traffic from the Sugarbus
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Robert Drury:
area. We are not crazy about the entrance
onto County Road 22, coming out of
Sugarbush, there has been a lot of concern
with that area; bring it over to the 7th
Line and out at Coulson where it is a much
safer entrance onto County Road 22. That
is one of the things the municipality has
suggested.
Maureen Martin:
I am with the Independent. I have a few
questions. Could you point out where the
Coulson Swamp is? The Reasonable Use
policy, how does the nitrate formula work?
Robert Lehman:
(At this point the recording tape was
changed and a portion of the recording was
lost.) These are not individual wells it
is a communal water system.
Maureen Martin:
You are under the assumption that it will
fill the Ministries requirements for
nitrate levels?
Robert Lehman:
If you want more information, when the
hydrogeologist goes through all the
formulas and calculates what the impact
would be on the nitrate level on the water
table according to the current Reasonable
Use Policy.
Maureen Martin:
So this is in accordance with the current
policy?
Robert Lehman:
Yes, but we know and the Ministry has told
everyone that the policy is going to
change.
Maureen Martin:
The potential of affordable housing policy
do you feel that would be affected by that
Robert Lehman:
I do not think affordability is an issue i
Oro Township as far as the provincial
Government is concerned.
Maureen Martin:
Have you had any discussions with the Boar
of Education because the Guthrie Public
School is now running at over capacity and
they have to rebuild and they can't becaus
of the Reasonable Use Policy. Are they
aware that the subdivision you plan will b
coming into the system?
Robert Lehman:
They will circulate it but havn't yet.
Peter Douglas:
I think I see the wisdom of the
municipalities proposal and I am certainly
aware of that problematic intersection
where we come off of Horseshoe Valley Road
down Concession 6, about half way down the
hill it is often difficult to stop,
particularly in the winter and I think tha
I as a resident might be tempted to use
this alternate route out of my community.
I am also concerned that residents of this
new proposed subdivision might be tempted
to use the route that is presently
presenting the difficulty.
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Rick Topham:
Councillor Crawford:
Deputy Reeve Caldwell:
Reeve Drury:
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I live in the Sugarbush area. On this sam
issue of the road access; it seems to me
that as the current Sugarbush development
phase is planned, there is going to be a
new access road at the top of the hill by
where the Church is now and that
theoretically would certainly alter some 0
the concern in terms of the grading and
coming into the existing 6th Line road. I
am suggesting that maybe the problem is no
going to be as serious as it currently
exists.
with respect to the new outlet on the road
I would expect that the County would be
aware of some of the problems in that a
deceleration lane would be required on tha
Horseshoe Valley Road or any new entrance.
We know there was a mistake made there and
it was not wide enough. I would certainly
do everything I can do to see that there i
a third lane put on there for deceleration
You learn by your mistakes and when you se
a problem it would not be allowed to happe
again.
What is proposed in the road configuration
at the Southern edge of the development as
it contacts the 6th Line in Sugarbush; an
alternate might be to have the cul-de-sac,
the lower one end and extend the upper one
through to the 6th Line and reduce the
impact on the number of people that are
there at the present time and still provid
an alternate route out in case of fire or
some other emergency. At the moment,
Sugarbush has only one access and that was
one of the concerns when this first came
before Planning Advisory. Concerns were
expressed that there is only one way out 0
Sugarbush and it is not advisable to have
it like this. There may be other
alternatives than the one I have proposed
and we can take a look at it. I think the
public comments are well taken.
I would like to thank the Sugarbush
Association for having the foresense to
look forward and have meetings with the
developers. I believe that will make a
smooth task with both developers and their
concerns with the Sugarbush residents. It
was very well thought out by you and the
developers to sit down and do some
brainstorming and come up with some ideas
and I would ask that you continue that; i
would certainly help the municipality in
making our decisions.
There being no further questions or comments, the Reeve in closing
the meeting, thanked those in attendance for their participation an
advised that Council would consider all matters before reaching a
decision. He then advised those present that if they wished to be
notified of the passing of the proposed By-law, they should leave
their name and address with the Clerk.
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MOTION NO.1
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Moved by Crawford, seconded by Mortson
Be it resolved that this Special Public Meeting of Council (Part of
Lot 3, Concession 7, Capobianco) now be adjourned @ 7:37 p.m.
Carried
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RjEVE ROBERT E. D RY - ~
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~LERk DARLENE SHOEBRIDGE