Loading...
04 01 1992 Public Minutes 7:20 41 i . . , THB CORPORATION 01' THB TOWNSHIP OJ' ORO 8PBCIAL PUBLIC KBftING WBDNB8DAY. APRIL 1.1991 . 7110 P.M. - COUNCIL cmuœBR8 ftBlftY-THIRD KBftING 1991-1994 COUNCIL The following members of Council were present: Deputy Reeve David Caldwell Councillor Alastair Crawford Councillor Joanne Crokam Councillor Leonard Mortson Absent: Reeve Robert E. Drury Also Present Were: Ms. Kris Menzies, Ms. Nicola Linnell, Mr. Alan Wayne, Mr. Ron Sommers, Mrs. Lynda Crawford, Mr. Doug Crawford, Mr Conrad Boffo, Mr. David Williamson, Mr. Ken williamson, V. Myles, M. Martyn, Mr. Gordon Wright, Mr. Gerald Dunn, Ms. Shirley Woodrow, Mr. John Hare, Mr. Donald R. MacDonald, A. Woolnough, Mr. Peter Bravakis, Mr. Rick Jones, and One Member of the Press. Deputy Reeve David Caldwell chaired the meeting. Deputy Reeve David Caldwell opened the meeting by explaining to those present that this Public Meeting was to receive public comments with respect to a proposed Official Plan and Zoning By-Law Amendment, under sections 17 and 34 of the Planning Act, 1983. The applicant has applied to redesignate and rezone certain lands described as the West Part of Lot 10, Concession 5 (Bravakis). To date, the Council of the Corporation of the Township of Oro have not made a decision on this application, other than proceeding to this Public Meeting. Only after comments are received from the Public, requested agencies and Township Staff, within the appropriate time period, will Council make a decision on this application. Notice of the Public Meeting was mailed out on March 12, 1992, to all property owners within 400 feet of the subject lands. Notice 0 the Public Meeting was also placed in both the Barrie Examiner and Orillia Packet on March 12, 1992. Deputy Reeve Caldwell then asked the Clerk if there had been any correspondence received on this matter. The Clerk responded by indicating that one letter had been received from the Nottawasaga Valley Conservation Authority stating their objection/concerns to the proposed amendments. The Deputy Reeve then stated that those persons present would be afforded the opportunity of asking questions with respect to the proposed Amendments. He then turned the meeting over to the Township Planner, Ms. Kris Menzies, to explain the purpose and effect of the proposed Official Plan and Zoning By-Law Amendments. , - 2 - Kris Menzies: The subject property is located on Part Lo 10, Concession 5. It is currently designated Agricultural in the Official Plan and currently zoned Agricultural. Th proponents are requesting a redesignation to Hamlet, which in effect will extend the existing boundaries of the Hamlet of Edgar and a rezoning to Country Residential. Th notice that went out in the paper, as the Deputy Reeve stated, went out in March and at that time the municipality had information that a forty-seven lot subdivision was proposed. We have recentl received more updated information that a thirty lot residential subdivision is proposed. I would like to take the opportunity at this time to address one of the concerns that the Nottawasaga Valley Conservation Authority put forth and that concern as th Clerk read out, had to do with the notification of the Public Meeting. I am addressing this at this point because the notification for Public Meeting is put out by the municipality. The Conservation Authority was correct in stating that section 17 (3) of the Planning Act require thirty days notice of a Public Meeting, however section 17 (4) of the Planning Act states unless otherwise indicated. The otherwise indicated is if you have provisions in your Official Plan to give notice in a manner other than prescribed i section 17 (3), you follow those requirements. In section 7.8.2 of the Township Official Plan, we have stated tha Public Notice for an Official Plan Amendment shall be given twenty days prior to the Public Meeting being held and that amendment has been supported and adopted b the Ministry of Municipal Affairs. So in fact, legally the Public Meeting has been notified and we have adhered to everything in the Planning Act that is required. I understand that the proponent of the application has his consultant here, Mr. Rick Jones of Jorden and Jones and perhaps Mr. Jones would like to give some more detailed information about the application Rick Jones: Yes, and with me as well is Mr. Al Woolnough of C.C. Tatham and Associates fo the Engineering. Rick Jones: I have a duplicate of the subdivision plan so everybody can get a good look at what w are proposing. I am the Planning Consultant for Mr. Bravakis's Residential Development proposal. The Development Application was submitted originally in late 1988 and has been reviewed and discussed fairly consistently since that time. The boundaries of the subdivision are describe on the attachment and contain about sixty - 3 - Rick Jones: -three acres. As Kris has correctly pointed out, the original submission made to the Township's Planning Committee did incorporate forty-seven units. The property is located adjacent to Concession Road 4 which lies on its West boundary and the South boundary is County Road 11. Again, as the notice has correctly indicated it is the proposal to redesignat the lands from Agricultural to Hamlet. It is the principle objective for Residential Development within the Township's Official Plan that residential development when, contemplated, be consolidated with existin communities; Hamlet being one type of Community which is designated in the Official Plan. The Plan very clearly surrounds the North-East corner of Edgar and I think in very compatible fashion. The lots shown on this Plan of Subdivision of course are much larger than those withi the Village at this point in time, because the lot size at this time in the 1990's, i driven by environmental considerations; sewage disposal being the principle one. One acre size lots now are becoming very typical. So even in situations where you have existing developed uses within Villages and Hamlets, new development very often takes on a much larger development form, particularly when you are dealing with the potential for private wells and private disposal facilities. I think we have a very compatible development situation. For one thing as you can see by the attachment and perhaps more clearly by the enlarged map on the board, we have a Park Dedication backing onto County Road 11 which provides green space. As well, we have a storm detention area, which Al will go into with more detail, which backs onto existing residential uses on the North side of the County Road and we have as you can see ver deep lots adjoining the existing residential uses. This Plan contains thirty lots and below each of the lot numbers is an area calculation. Most of these lots are well over one acre and with some of the larger lots being two acres. The roadway is around a simple pattern and simply follows the configuration of the property, it loop through from Line 4 to County Road 11. It is simple but of course it is efficient with its double connection. Even the constraint which environmentally is offere by the creek which runs mid centre to the plan, also affords expanded open space opportunity within this area, (Indicated on Plan) to the Park, to the retention area, to the designated Parkland. So in a sense, even this constraint can be used to an advantage for this residential use and development. , " - 4 - Rick Jones: Again as indicated, we have started this plan in late 1988 and it has been reviewed by the Township's Planning Committee a number of times. It has also been reviewe from a Planning point of view and from an Engineering point of view with a number of agencies. One of the Chief review bodies has been the Ministry of Agriculture and Food and they have not yet commented favourably on this Plan but we expect them to do so. They have agreed that the land capacity is limited to Class 2 and 3, with Class 5, being situated in this lower marshy area. As probably a lot of you know, I don't believe this land has been used productively for quite some time. Th prospects for productive farming opportunity are probably quite limited in the future. We feel that given the constraints to Agricultural on the propert and doubling that opportunity with its situation adjacent to Edgar, that we have very viable residential development that w would like to bring forward as soon as possible. Al, could you explain the engineering implications. A1 Woo1nough: One of the first things we did was retain specialist hydrogeologist to look at the potential for ground water supply for fres wells and also for the potential for impac from tile beds. That was originally done, based on the 47 lot subdivision, so changes in the Ministry of the Environment's Guidelines that was redone recently and the hydrogeologist has supported 30 lots. He has indicated that there is an adequate supply of fresh groun water and that the wells would be well protected from the tile beds by a thick layer of heavy soil. There is a test well that is being placed on site between lots 12 and 14. That well was drilled and tested at that time on the assumption that it would be a communal well and we are now looking at individual wells; it is down 6 metres, about 228 feet deep. The well was tested and will provide a perennial yield of fresh water of sixty gallons per minute For an individual house you would be happy with five or ten would be real nice. The water is safe to drink, it is hard which i not unusual for Central ontario and can be treated in the individual homes with an iron removal in it. The Simcoe County District Health unit has reviewed the project and they have indicated in a letter dated January 1991, that they would not oppose to change in principle to Estate Residential lots. The did indicate some concern about the lots i the area in the South West corner, it is damp in the backs of those properties. As a result of that concern, we retained a soil consultant to do some further testing and they placed measuring equipment in there and finally came back to say that - 5 - A1 Woo1nough: raised tile beds would be required. We fully expect that we will be able to have all the lots approved by the Health unit. In terms of storm water management, you heard the letter from the Conservation Authority read and really it sounds bad when you hear their letter but those are their standard concern issues, based on an property, particularly one that has a wate course on or near. The Conservation Authority's General Policy is that the water running off the property after development, shouldn't exceed the rate tha it runs off before development. There is some difference between the predevelopment and development runoff and that situation is handled by detention ponds. Typically detention pond in a modern subdivision doe not retain water it is a berm that only holds water after a significant rain storm The situation is that it catches the water and you bleed it off at a rate that doesn' exceed the rate it use to run off. The total catchment area exceeds one hundred and twenty-five hectares and in this case it is one hundred and sixty three or about 400 hundred acres. The Township has a standard Subdivision Agreement which deals with road widths and pavement widths and the centre distances for lighting and items like that. The Subdivision itself would be designed according to the standard Subdivision Agreement. Relative to traffic, there are statistical methods for generating expecte traffic. Based on thirty detached houses we expect the subdivision would generate about 329 trips per day over a twenty four hour period. Existing traffic on County Road 11 is about 1400 vehicles per day, which is not a high number for a County Road; it generally increases as you head West towards Highway 93. Fire protection, again the Subdivision Agreement deals with it. The existing wel will be dedicated to fire protection for the subdivision. There will be a reservoi placed which will be accessible exclusivel to the Fire Department's Pumper. The standard number in the agreement is 10,000 gallons or about 45,000 litres of water. Allan Wayne: Talking about fire protection, were you planning on putting fire hydrants in? A1 Woo1nough: When we were looking at 47 lots, we were looking at a communal system which would have had water mains and hydrants. Now that we are only looking at 30 lots, and have discussed the project with the Township's Consultant, and typically with that few wells you would take the route were you have individual wells and provide a reservoir for the Fire Department's use. Donald R. MacDonald: Deputy Reeve Caldwell: John Hare: A1 Woo1nough: John Hare: A1 Woo1nough: John Hare: A1 woo1nough: John Hare: Deputy Reeve Caldwell: Dave Williams: - 6 - (Mr. MacDonald read from a prepared writte statement regarding the proposed development and a copy of this statement i on file at the Oro Township Office.) with respect to your comments concerning the Township's Staff and/or Consultants, our Staff and/or Consultants comment only to Council and we do not normally have any input as far as what the proponent brings forward. Regarding the fire reservoir, I believe under the new rules that are coming out, I think they are asking for a minimum of 30,000 gallons on the reservoir. That would be dictated by the Township. I am talking about the Underwriters. It is not a reservoir that feeds a water system. It also should have two entrances you migh say, one for the pumper to pump from and the other for the tank trucks to dump into so that you are always maintaining your 30,000 gallons. I noticed one thing here that you don't have any sidewalks. I know we are in the Country but this is a very high extreme area of snow, especially in Edgar and the children have to walk on the road to get out to get the bus. I talked to Mrs. O'Brien about it and she said that is one thing they would like to see and that is subdivisions with sidewalks. The sidewalks are an item specifically required by the standard agreement but the agreements are all negotiable of course. According to our Official Plan it does say that the Hamlets be provided to expand from. You did indicate that you have some information, would you mind sending some 0 that information to the attention of the Township? It appears you have done your homework as far as stormwater management, nitrates, etc. My concern is in that there is reall two steps here; one is redesignation to Hamlet and the other is Country Residential. with a very serious environmental concern and the continually changing of the Ministry of the Environment, I would like to see a clause which would limit the permitted uses under Hamlet designation, restricted to single family dwellings or country estate. My reasoning for this is that if the Ministry of the Environment makes some massive changes to this lot layout, we wouldn't like to see the developer come up with a - 7 - Dave Williams: new designation for a portion or some part of the property. The only other comment I have is a securit or trespassing concern in that I am concerned with the property immediately East of this development. My question is, is there any consideration for fencing around the boundaries of the development? Rick Jones: There is boundary vegetation on the West bound area of the plan and is pretty complete along the North. It defines the acreage very well. If chain link fencing was contemplated, it may disrupt or destro some of that boundary vegetation. I would prefer as a Planner, to see that voluntarily provided by the various owners because of the existence of that vegetation. Gord Wright: I moved to Edgar one year ago and at that time I took the trouble to come to the Township Office and inquire whether there was any development plans in the offing. was told at the time there was none so I a a little surprised to hear that this has been around since 1988. My one comment is you said that the traffic would be minimal We already have all kinds of gravel trucks roaring up and down the Old Barrie Road, maybe what you think is minimal won't be minimal to the residents of Edgar. Gerald Dunn: I own property adjacent to this development. Back in 1988 this developer proposed to buy my property and it took tw years to finally get an answer out of him which was this past month and he does not want the property. I own three and three quarter acres of Agricultural land and wit this development going in I am concerned with the pond that is going in there which is showing on that map there now. This area is very wet up until the middle of th summer, sometimes into August before it starts drying up and with this extra runof going into that area, I think it would mak the land unaccessible. I would like to be notified of anything that goes on with thi development or proposals. I am concerned with the water table in the area, putting that many wells in that area and with that many septic tanks. I believe it will create a hazard in time. Rick Jones: It was when the application was initially taken out that perhaps this area could be utilized for public park use, in which cas Mr. Bravakis looked at acquiring Mr. Dunn' property. with the reduction of lots from 47 to 30, the need for larger park space declined. The provision of the park space in this location here (referred to map) introduced it to Edgar in general, rather than isolating it to the subdivision in particular. So the location of the park i this location has broader use for the - 8 - Rick Jones: Community. We still have a very large are of about 63-64 acres and further consideration that each lot will have almost 2 acres for private open space, the addition of more land into this subdivisio was considered unnecessary. Finally, Mr. Dunn's property is not isolated. He has a long piece of property but he has frontage on Line 4. Virginia Hiles: We have property adjoining the proposed subdivision. I am new to the area so if m questions are basic that is why, as I am unfamiliar with the project. I have three concerns that I would like to go on record for. After receiving notice of this meeting, I as well came to the Council Office asking for further information that said in the notice, was available, was tol that there would be nothing until the Council Meeting. I think it is prudent to have something to look over before you get to a meeting like this so that you can hav questions prepared in your mind. Number two, I am also concerned about, in light 0 the study from the Nottawasaga Valley Conservation Authority, regarding how your proposal will affect our wells and septic tanks, I don't think there is enough information on that. In light of what the have said, I assume they had the same plan to go from. What type of changes would yo have to make to comply with what they have said? A1 Woo1nough: The Conservation Authority has a preliminary report but they have not reviewed it and they have quite a changeover in staff. with respect to well there was a hydrogeologist report done and a test well put in and tested. The water supply for the subdivision will come from an aquifer which is quite deep. He looked at most of the wells records that existed in the Hamlet and indicated that most of them were shallower. Either they are shallower and won't be affected by this deeper well or if they are deeper they are in the same aquifer. He has indicated wit regards to the tile beds, the government has specific guidelines for dilution of th contaminates by the time they reach the property line. That is the reason the subdivision is now 30 lots instead of 47, because the Ministry has changed those guidelines. So in his opinion the development is quite safe from both a well and tile bed perspective. Virginia Miles: What about the flooding? A1 Woolnough: The Conservation Authority, as I said earlier, what they require you to do is limit the flow off your property to the same level as before development. That is done with a detention by holding the water back and bleeding it off at a slower rate. .' virginia Miles: A1 Woo1nough: virginia Miles: Peter Bravakis: Donald R. MacDonald: Gerald Dunn: A1 Woo1nough: Maureen Martyn: A1 Woo1nough: Maureen Martyn: A1 Woo1nough: Councillor Crawford: - 9 - You feel the ditches are large enough to cope with the runoff that they are talkin about? We will be looking at them in detail at t detailed design stage of the subdivision. What type of housing are you proposing? The homes will be approximately 1200 to 1800 square feet, single family, with a double garage, most will be bungalows. Could Virginia Miles please point out wher she is located. I would like to make one more comment. In July and August in this area, I had a dug well, I now have a drilled well on my property, several properties in Edgar have dry wells in those months and if they propose this subdivision with those extra wells, it may create more problems for those dug wells in the Village. The problem with the dug wells is that the are shallow and are in an upper layer of soil. The well that we have put in goes down through heavy materials and then back into sand again and is a different water source. So the deep well would not effect the shallower wells already in the Hamlet. I have a question about your detention pond. Can you tell me approximately how big it will be, the height and how deep it will be? We have not got detail design done but I would guess that it will probably not be more than a metre deep, about 30 metres long and about 5 or 6 metres wide. How close is that to Public access, I am worried about the safety of children in th area? There is water there now and what we will do when we are done will be to improve the water course through the property so that water does not sit there. There will be a berm placed there that has a limited opening so that when the water comes down at a faster rate it will go to the opening and start to back up behind the berms and flow out through the pipe. When it stops raining it continues to flow through the pipe and the water gets away. What it doe is just slow the water down, detains it temporarily, so that it runs off at the same rate as it would have before the development; when there was more grass an less pavement. Who owns the property between County Road and the pond? , c . A1 Woo1nough: Councillor Crawford: A1 Woo1nough: Councillor Crawford: Al Woo1nough: Councillor Crawford: A1 Woo1nough: Dave Williams: A1 Woo1nough: Dave Williams: A1 Woo1nough: - 10 - I am not sure of his name but Mr. Bravakis has spoken to him about doing some work on his property and we believe he is agreeabl to that. My concern is always one of common water law. You are changing water courses and other common water law and you have to see it to a satisfactory outlet. Have you mad arrangements to see it to a satisfactory outlet. In other words you have agreement to take that water to the closest river or stream. We are on the stream. As I said, Mr. Bravakis has spoken to this gentleman and there has been no formal agreement made whether it be an easement of purchasing th property. The County Road has a culvert beneath it and it is being carried on down We will be limiting the flow off the property to the predevelopment level. But not the length of time it runs? No. The volume will increase slightly, bu not the rate and it is usually the rate that you are concerned about. We have one situation that we have water coming out of Barrie and goes through certain properties and those property owners come to us and ask us what we are going to do about it. Once they are done there is nothing we can do about it. In Shanty Bay there was one case where they had to divert because they couldn't get an agreement between the water/detention pond and the Lake. I would not want to see thi happen until I know definitely that the water gets to a satisfactory outlet and agreements are made all the way through. The Conservation Authority will see to that. What we have here in this development is about seventeen percent of the area above here that drains down through this area and the organizing we ar doing in this area, we are not significantly increasing the amount of runoff. We will be putting in ditches which causes the water to take a longer route, slows it down somewhat. We will be controlling the rate of water off the property and that is the mandate of the Conservation Authority to see to that. The contours indicated on this drawing, ar they existing contours? Yes they are. will the public be given the opportunity t review the detail lot grade at a further stage? We are not planning on changing the contou significantly. The road will follow the . "f', .' - 11 - A1 Woolnough: contours there. There will be some fill required on these lower lots at the back here. John Hare: On your water course now; does that strea go down by Charlie Sanderson's old stop? Dave Caldwell: No it is the one that is below it, it goes through my Dad's place. It crosses the 4 Line, and towards the Shanty Bay Golf Course. There being no further questions or comments, the Deputy Reeve in closing the meeting, thanked those in attendance for their participation and advised that Council would consider all matters before reaching a decision. He then advised those present that if they wished to be notified of the passing of the proposed By-law, they should leave their name and address with the Clerk. MOTION NO.1 Moved by Mortson, seconded by Crawford Be it resolved that this Special Public Meeting of Council, (Bravakis, West Part of Lot 10, Concession 5) now be adjourned @ 8:20 p.m. Carried ~~ .klp b./ d,oG ' ERK DARLENE SHOEBRIDGE