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04 05 1995 SP Public Minutes 8 8 , f ~ , . !'lIB CORPORA~Io:ø OJ' !'lIB 'tODSlIIP OJ' ORo-1ŒDO1ft'B SPBCDL PUBLIC UftIlIG wmnŒSray. U1U:L S. 1995 , 7:00 P.M. - COUBCIL CDKBDS PIPTBBNTH MB~ING 1994-1997 COUBCIL The following members of Council were present: Mayor Ian Beard Deputy Mayor Murray Martin Councillor Walter Dickie Councillor Don Bell Councillor Neil Craig Councillor Cotton -arrived @ 7:40 p.m. Absent: Councillor Sommers staff Present: Mr. Gary Cunnington, Administrator, Mark Stagg, Planner, Jennifer Zieleniewski, Treasurer, Andria Leigh, Zoning Administrator, Paul Eenhoorn, Fire Chief. Also Present Were: Jerry Jorden, Ian Rowe, Evelyn Elsey, E. M. Hall, Elda Hall, Lillian McConnell, Nel Newell, Rene McCutcheon, Darcy Lawlor, Ken Robbin, Patricia Robbin, Janet Ball, Sharon Howse, Donald R. MacDonald, Nancy & Michael Eleveld, Peter McKerroll, Greg Howse, Shirley Woodrow, Velma Bradley, Ross Bradley, John Hare, Ardill Gillespie, David W. Beard, David Wilkins, Jack Seigel, Connie Cochrane, Ted Beaton, Faye Goode, Colleen Micalle, Allan and Linda Baker, Don Anderson, Wayne Tutt, Bill Langs, John & Roma Toffan, Ron & Brenda Woods, Ann Budge, Carol Buker, Brian Buker, Barbara Sinton, Betty Veitch, Jean Crawford, Alastair Crawford, N. Dalziel, Pat Toal, Pamela McKee, Myrtle Davis, Tom Smith, Rae smith, Brian Caroline, David Prentice, Audrey Monk, Gary Brown, Ed Toal, Jean McNiven, Neil McNiven, Corry Boyd, Marion Saila. Mayor Ian Beard chaired the meeting. Mayor Ian Beard opened the meeting by explaining to those present that this Public Meeting was to receive public comments with respect to a proposed Official Plan Amendment and Zoning By-Law Amend~ent, under provisions of section 34, of the Planning Act, R.S.O., 1990 c. P. 13. The applicant has applied to redesignate certain lands, Part of Lot 1, Concession 8, former Township of Oro, to allow for the development of a medical/dental health centre which would be developed in phases. 8 8 , : - 2 - To date, the Council of the Corporation of the Township of Oro- Medonte have not made a decision on this application, other than proceeding to this Public Meeting. Only after comments are received from the Public, requested agencies and Township staff, within the appropriate time period, will Council make a decision on this application. Notice of the Public Meeting was mailed out on March 16, 1995, to all property owners within 120 metres of the subject lands. Mayor Beard then asked the Clerk if there had been any correspondence received on this matter. The Clerk responded by indicating that several communications had been recei ved as follows: 1. Letter dated December 19, 1994 from Simcoe County Engineer's Office, W. H. Brown which stated no major concerns, however access approval would be subject to the following (briefly) - traffic impact study (20 yr. factor) - trees on each side of access to be removed (improve sight distance) - right turn deceleration lane required - to be constructed to Provincial Standards. 2. Letter dated April 3, 1995 from Simcoe County Engineer's Off ice, W. H. Brown conf irming access proposed is most preferred in terms of sight distance on the property. 3. Letter dated March 30, 1995 from Simcoe County Department, Ian Bender, pointing out existing within the Township's Official Plan would suggest proposed development should not be permitted location. Planning policies that the at this 4. Letter dated March 3,1995 from Ministry of Agriculture and Food & Rural Affairs, Karen Partanen stating they had no comments or objections to the proposal. 5. Verbal telephone message from the Simcoe County District Health Unit, April 5, 1995, Ted Devine advising they require more data. 6. Clifford & Irene Wells, April 5, 1995, letter supporting the application. 7. Noted the results of a survey circulated by the applicant seeking comments from residents on the proposal; of 208 responses, 122 found it excellent, 55 very good, 21 good, 3 were neutral and 7 were against. The Mayor then stated that those persons present would be afforded the opportunity of asking questions with respect to the proposed Amendment. He then turned the meeting over to the Township Planner, Mr. Mark Stagg, to explain the purpose and effect of the proposed Amendment. Hark stagg: The proposal is east of the hamlet of Coulson. Specifically, we are requested to amend the Official Plan from Rural to Commercial and the Zoning By-law from Rural to General Commercial C-1 and Rural. The purpose of the application is to accommodate a proposed health centre. I understand the applicant has their consultant here tonight to address this Mr. Mayor. 8 8 , ; , , . - 3 - Jerry Jorden: Thank you Mr. Mayor. I will just stand over here by the easel. Can everyone hear me without using the microphone, is that ok at the back? My name is Jerry Jorden and I am a Planning Consultant and I have been retained by Doctor Elsey to provide Planning Consultant services to her for this particular proposal and to deal with it through the planning approval process. There is a bit of background to this and I would just like to briefly touch on the background, describe a little bit more in detail the proposal, both immediate and longer term and then talk briefly about two main areas of potential concern, one being the Official Plan and the recent Official Plan Amendment No. 39 and the other being County Road 22 and the traffic aspects. So bear with me as I go through those. The background first of all. We have not come to this site quickly or lightly, there has been a series of events that has led us or led Dr. Elsey, more specifically, to this situation that we are now dealing with. Dr. Elsey, as probably everyone knows, is a dentist practising out of her home on Trillium Court in Oro Hills. She has been very successful in her practice at that location and that success has had problems associated with it. Essentially, she is operating as a home occupation and she is really getting beyond the bounds of a typical home occupation in terms of the amount of patients that are coming and the traffic and the parking and these kinds of things. So there has been concern on the part of the Township, the original Township of Oro and for a certain extent, on Dr. Elsey's part as well as to this operation. She has tried previously to proceed on a commercial site in the Horseshoe Valley area and that application for rezoning, it is designated commercial but not zoned commercial and that application for rezoning to commercial was turned down by the Council of the day. The next stage of her looking to establishing proper facilities was to come to this site, the subject site, and she has purchased it and she wishes to proceed on that site and has made application for Official Plan and Zoning By-law Amendments. The site itself is again, I suspect everybody is probably familiar with it, but it is shown on this map. It probably does not show up from a distance but please feel free to come up and look at it at the conclusion of the presentation and the meeting. (Indicated on map) This is County Rd. 22 running horizontally. This is the 7th Line and this is the 8th Line. Coulson is right here, existing Coulson. The property, some 84 acres, is shown outlined in red. It is a long narrow property and the point on the site of that property where we are proposing the principal part of the Official Plan Amendment and the actual development, is shown as a red blob and that is essentially the existing building complex on the property if you are familiar with it. Just while I am on this map, I will come back to it later, but this brown area that I show here, I identify it as the hamlet designation in Coulson. That is the designation, not the built up area in Coulson right now but the Official Plan long term plan, if you will, for the hamlet of Coulson. So we are immediately east of that designation, fronting on the south side of the County Road. There are a couple of houses across the road. There are a couple of, I think three houses, just down to the south of the site. There is an agricultural use to the south, and agricultural buildings are used to the north or northwest and then the existing cluster of buildings in Coulson. 8 8 , ; . \ - 4 - Jerry Jorden: Now the main priority of what prompted this, as I said before is that Dr. Elsey is looking to establish as her first priority a proper and larger scale dental facility and practice. So that is the catalyst, if you will, that led to the application. Because we are dealing with an Official Plan change, we are dealing with the principal of the development and long term development. Not just a dental practice that will be developed over the next year or two but what is the long term plan for the particular property. So the application has been made in the context of a four phased development of what we call a health centre which would include ultimately, not only the dental practice, that would be the initial priority, possibly as well ini tially wi th a medical doctor and pharmacy. There is discussions going on about that right now but of course that can't be firmed up until we get further into the planning process. In any event, that is phase one and that would occur, this is a conceptual site plan of the area shown in red here (indicated on map), this is the site of the existing buildings, okay. The existing house is right here, I hope Council members can see, if not just lean ahead a bit. Okay, as I said before, this area here is essentially an enlargement of the red area on the sketch. It is about two-thirds to three-quarters of the way across the property frontage. This is the existing access point now on the property and we are proposing to use that. The existing house sits here. There is a shed back about in here and the barn, the existing barn sits in about this vicinity right now. So what we are proposing is in terms of long term development, ultimate development of the site is a medical/dental facility, health centre, starting with the location of the existing house. Because of the nature of the dental practice, in all likelihood, the house will in fact be replaced because it is simpler to do that than to try and retrofit it for all the technology you need for a dental practice but it will be built in a rural architectural style with a peaked roof to blend into the site and of course it is well protected by the treed areas that are already around it. So that is phase one. Then in terms of phasing, as I say, there is an ultimate four phased process here. Phase two would be additional medical facilities. By extending the building further south in this area (indicated on map) plus a building over here which we are identifying as a security building and also some enclosed parking or covered parking, if you will. Now that security building could take the form of a on site security officer or it could take the form of an OPP Community facility and we have had some discussions with the OPP but there is no commitment at this time, but I am certainly not telling you that we are going to have an OPP facility there. But that is a possibility and we would like to structure the planning documents so that it remains a possibility. Phase three, and as part of the first or second phase, there would be a pharmacy which would be in association with the medical practice and then in the third phase there would be a full scale dental, sorry drug store in this location, (indicated on map) again with building a further extension building to the south. The final phase as contemplated at the moment, and I will tell you why I say that shortly, would be a veterinarian clinic at the site of the existing barn, in a new building, at that site. So that is the general structure. There would be parking spaces in the centre, between the buildings and loading spaces as well, provided to the buildings. 8 8 , , , " - 5 - Jerry Jorden: In terms of servicing, we have had a hydrogeology report done and there would be a well drilled on the property, a reasonably deep well to approximately 230 feet and the hydrogeologist indicate that there is good water availability there and they don't anticipate any water problems. It is not likely to be a high water use facility in any event but it is a much deeper well than the wells in the area as we understand them. So, that would be the water supply. They sewage disposal would be by septic tank system, tentatively proposed in this location and again, that is tentative because we will be discussing that further with the Health Unit. In terms of need, just before I go to the Official Plan, obviously, Dr. Elsey's practice is expanding and there is a need for greater facilities. The Township has a population of over 15,000 people and a municipality of that size can support up to ten dentists and seven or eight doctors so there is obviously there is room for more medical and dental facilities in the municipality than there is now. So that combined with Dr. Elsey's survey, which you have already heard about, which indicates a very strong indication of support from the people that responded to the survey has led us to the conclusion that there is a need for these kinds of facilities in the Township and in particular in this area because of the, obviously the additional development that is going to occur and the existing development that is already in the area and the existing development that is going to occur as Official Plan Amendment No. 39 is implemented. What I would like to turn to now is the planning documents of the municipality and the planning issues, if you will. The area presently, the entire site, is presently designated in the Official Plan as Rural not Agricultural. There is two categories in the "Rural Parts of the Municipality" and this is designated Rural which indicates generally areas of lower, predominantly lower class lands and the Agricultural are the higher classed lands. In addition, there is a small area in the corner which is a wet land area or part of the wet land area which is included as a Environmental Protection Area. We have had, on that point, we have had discussions with the Ministry of Natural Resources and I have a letter and unfortunately, I didn't get it to the Clerk but, I have a letter from them that they have no concerns with regard to the development in terms of the wet land. We are sufficiently separated from the wet land area. In any event, the Rural designation does not permit this type of use so we have applied for, as I said before, an Official Plan Amendment. One of the issues of concern that has arisen at the Planning Committee level and at other levels is the matter of Official Plan Amendment No. 39 which is the Horseshoe Valley Road or the Horseshoe Road Corridor amendment. It identified five growth areas for recreational residential kinds of development and those were Prices Corners and Craighurst and then the three intermediate areas if you will, of Sugarbush, Buffalo Springs and Horseshoe Valley. This site is not in any of those areas as identified in Official Plan Amendment No. 39. However, it is our submission to Council and I have prepared a Planning report on this to the municipality or for the municipality's use, if you will. That Official Plan Amendment is dealing with residential development and recreational development, not the type of development we are dealing with here and therefore, it is not, we are not dealing with those particular policies. However, beyond that there is in the Official Plan policies, the rest of the Official Plan if you will, policies dealing with development in the Township generally and in that Official Plan, one of the things, one of the types of areas that it talks about is hamlet areas and Coulson is a hamlet area and that blob that I have shown there 8 8 , . - 6 - Jerry Jorden: (indicated map) is approximately the blob, if you will, in the Official Plan on Coulson and it abuts this property. So, essentially it is, what it is is the next, it is the existing built up area and the next field to it to the east. That is already designated as a hamlet. The Official Plan and Mr. Bender's letter from the County mentions this that the Official Plan talks about general commercial being encouraged, not exclusively but being encouraged in hamlets among other areas, generally built up areas. This site is as close to Coulson as you can get and yet meet the standards for sewage disposal for a use of this type. You cannot get this use in a hamlet on individual services. The Terraprobe hydrogeology report that was done says, and this is a bit of a balancing act because we had to drop some things and modify some things, but essentially what we are talking about here can go on a site of 84 acres, which low and behold, we had 84 acres, what a coincidence. But we had to do a balancing act to get to that point. The Health Unit is still somewhat concerned, it may, we may still be cutting back on some of the things like the veterinarian clinic may end up not going ahead, some of the phase four stuff. But the point is that the standards for septic systems for these kinds of developments require large sites, you can't get that large site on individual services in a small hamlet, right in it. Okay, so we are as close as you can get to meet, to do the balancing act of you know, protecting the environment and still achieving what the Official Plan is trying to achieve in terms of hamlet development. So from our prospective, we believe that the amendment would be consistent with the planning in the Official Plan, as consistent as you can be in terms of that servicing criteria that we have to deal with. Then the other issues comes down, I want to deal with these planning things now because I think that it is important that we get the planning context. Then, if it is accepted that yes, this property is abutting a hamlet and really as close as you can get for development of this type and size, to a hamlet, then the other issue that follows from that, again, the Planning Committee asked us about this, wouldn't it be better to put the buildings adjacent to the hamlet area or the ultimate hamlet area as it is built out? Unfortunately, I don't, I mean that is always an option that is open to be looked at and we are willing to consider any options but, we believe there is more to be lost from doing that than to be gained. Firstly, the fact is that the building complex is already here, the access is already here, this is not being used agriculturally, okay, so this represents the least loss of agricultural land. We will lose some because we are expanding a little bit south and the septic field is much bigger and I don't think you can cultivate over septic fields, I am not an expert on that, so that could be a factor as well, but essentially much of this is in the area that is not being farmed now. If you go over here (indicated on map) you are going to some of the best agricultural land on the property. So, immediately you are starting into using up the agricultural land which this alternative doesn't do. As well, you are getting closer to these agricultural buildings across the road, right now we are well separated from them and from the buildings to the south, but you are getting much closer to them if you go up to that end of the property. The other aspect of the site to the west is the visual aspect, you are going to have the buildings sitting out in the middle of an empty field, whereas here, you have it sitting behind these large areas of mature trees, well back from the road and well screened and so very much in keeping with the context as opposed to sitting out in the middle of a field. Now we can, site Plan approval can put in some trees but they are going to take a long time to grow. - 7 - Jerry Jorden: The other problem is that if there is a concern about strip development and that term has been raised. One use, first of all does not constitute a strip development but secondly, if you put the development over here (indicated on map) then in effect, not in effect but in fact you have created a second access, so now you have two accesses. Whereas, the way we are doing it, you stay with the one access. 8 There is a concern that was expressed a little bit at the Planning Committee meeting that this would, putting it here would encourage development in between and that would lead to strip development. And again, a couple of things to bear in mind, firstly, the 84 acres, we need all of this property to do what we want to do in terms of what they call nitrate dilution areas, to keep the nitrate levels from the septic system at the proper levels. We are not proposing to sever now, we would never be able to sever under the Reasonable Use Guidelines because we need all the acreage we have. So there is no way, this is all one property. There is no way that we can start severing lots off in the area in between. So, in our opinion this is not strip development, this is the best site on the property to put it and it will not lead to infilling between the two areas. Let me briefly just touch on what we are suggesting go into the Official Plan Amendment. We are suggesting that in the Official Plan Amendment and the Zoning By-law Amendment that it be very site specific that here is what is permitted on the property in very specific terms that it has to be monitored in terms of the Health Unit. And again, the nitrate dilution factors, that Kris Menzies in her report and she did a report on this, she also suggested, I hadn't suggested this myself but I certainly concur with her that the Official Plan Amendment not just deal with the site itself but deal with the remainder of the property as well and say that no uses would be allowed on the remainder of the property that would generate any kind of sewage flow so that in fact it does get kept untouched in terms of the Reasonable Use Guidelines of the Ministry of the Environment. There would also be site plan control applied as there is to all commercial type development in the Township. That site plan control means that the Township can ensure that a site plan whether it is this one or one similar to it actually happens that we don't just say that it is going to look like existing development and picturesque, etc. etc. they can actually incorporate that into an agreement that is registered right on title to the site. 8 Briefly, that is all I am going to say about the planning aspects for now. Briefly, I would just like to touch on the traffic aspects as well because that was raised at the Planning Committee meeting and I think it is an important concern that we should talk about. Again, we are talking about four phases, the first phase, we estimated possible trips to be generated and in the first phase, we are probably looking at 52 two-way trips or 104 traffic movements in and out of the site, that is at the dental office or level. The ultimate, if we ever get to the four phases and I have already told you that we may end up losing the veterinarian clinic, is we anticipate perhaps something in the order of 350 two-way trips or 700 trips a day over the course of a working day. Now there is a couple of things to bear in mind is one, firstly, trip distribution is particularly important. The key thing is the peak hours, the rush hour in the morning or the rush hour in the evening. People coming to a property at the start of the work day and going back to their homes at the end of the work day. Those are when the potential, greatest traffic problems could arise. The key thing to bear in mind about this is that it is spread over the course of the day. There are not the peak hours or not the - 8 - Jerry Jorden: 8 peak hours that there would normally be. You would have patients coming and going all day and so you don't have that peaking effect that creates a greater traffic concern. The other thing to bear in mind is that many of these trips are going to occur on the road anyway. These people are going to be living here and they are going to have to go somewhere to get dental and medical treatment or they are going to be on the road for other purposes, so what we are catering to is the people that are there now or are going to be there in the future. That is the service area, if you will, of the development. So, why generate the trips out of the area to Barrie or Orillia when you could perhaps deal with the people in the local area where they live. The second point I want to talk about just briefly is the access point. Again we are proposing using the existing access but it is going to be completely reconstructed to standard commercial requirements. There may be some tree removal and in fact, I think this site plan shows some of the trees removed. I think these trees actually go right across now. (indicated on map). So there will be some tree removal and there will be the right turn either lane or tapered, depending on the traffic impact study. We have sufficient sight lines at the site and this was a concern the committee raised as well. We have sufficient sight lines at the sight to the west according to the County Roads Department and County Engineer, so we meet the requirements in terms of engineering standards and the County engineer in the letter that we heard tonight advises that this is the best location. That is another problem with the other end of the site that I didn't mention before is that as you know, probably most of you, there is a fairly steep hill in this location on the Horseshoe Valley Road so to go up adjacent to the hamlet designation, you are into dealing with that sight line problem. Okay, in terms of the County Road itself, it is designated as a rural collector in the Official Plan and that road has been the subject of a study by the Township by the Cole-Sherman Corporation which is Engineering Consultants. It indicates in their report, and I am just basically referring to their report so these are not my comments they are theirs. That accidents rates along that road are generally consistent with provincial averages for secondary highways. 8 Over the recent past, many of the accidents occur at night or later in the evening and that of course is not during the operating hours of this particular facility. The level of service along the road is generally good. That means it generally serves the purposes for which it has been designed and the speed levels for which it has been designed. The study indicates that as development occurs along the road, there is going to be a tripling of traffic along that road because you have Sugarbush and you have the Buffalo Springs etc. etc. and they indicate traffic improvements or road will be necessary to accommodate that but the point is and they identify a number of these and we can go through those if necessary. The point is, wi th those improvements the highway or the County road can handle the future development envisaged for this particular area. Then just to summarize transportation, the principal here, I think is that direct, you should direct higher traffic generating uses to major roads. This is a higher traffic generating use. Where do you put a higher traffic generating use? You put it on a major road. So, this is one of the reasons that we have proposed to use the existing entrance and to access directly on to' the County road. Also, the other principal is to site the uses central to their service area so that you minimize the amount of traffic and the distances that people have to travel and again, we are central, we are almost - 9 - Jerry Jorden: dead centre in the Township and we are certainly central to the service area that this use is intended to address. As well, another principal of course is to minimize, where possible, the number of individual access points onto major roads. Again, we are proposing to use the existing access point and if you start going closer to Coulson, you end up creating another access point. so, we feel that the existing situation and our approach to it is the best approach in terms of traffic planning along the County road. 8 So, in conclusion Mr. Mayor, it is our submission that this is a needed service for the area and that this is a good location, very central on a major road, very central, readily accessible from the variety of developments that are going to occur along the corridor. It has good access. There would be minimal visual impact because of the trees and the screening of the site and it is our submission that it is in the public interest both of this area and of the Township generally to proceed on with the usage that we are proposing tonight. Hayor Beard: Thank you Mr. Jorden, I think you have answered a lot of questions before they were asked and you sure have covered a lot of bases in your presentation. Now at this point, we will take questions from members of the audience and we would ask them to come forward and speak into the mike please and state your name as the minutes are being recorded, tapes so we can make a transcript of the meeting as it transpires. The first person, anyone with questions? Donald HacDonald: Yes, I am Donald R. MacDonald of R. R. #6, Orillia. This is a question for Mr. Jorden. You speak of the need for 84 acres. Are you not saying that this proposal is not in accordance with the Growth and Settlement Guidelines by having that requirement of 84 acres? Jerry Jorden: What I am saying is that we are as consistent with Growth and Settlement as we can be. We are adjacent to a hamlet, which is what Growth and Settlement essentially talks about, but that we can't plunk it down on a half acre lot in the hamlet, so that is, so we have drawn the best compromise that we can draw. Donald HacDonald: 8 So you are saying that the hamlet should not be under communal sewage then? Jerry Jorden: I am saying, no I didn't say anything about that. Donald HacDonald: Well you are implying that then? Jerry Jorden: No, what I am saying is that what Growth and Settlement, if you put Growth and Settlement and Reasonable Use together, probably nothing is going to happen other than on full services. So you can almost pack up Oro-Medonte and let everybody drive to Barrie or Orillia but realistically, what I am saying is that, and what - 10 - Jerry Jorden Growth and Settlement realistically says is that it would be preferable to go on full services but you can't have everything on full services and so if you are going to something else you have got to be able to back it up like to do the hydrogeological study, which we are doing and then still preferably put it into a built up area. But there is no way economically that you can fully service a place like Coulson or Jarratt. I mean there is just not enough return from the number of uses that are there to be justified. 8 Donald HacDonald: I have another question. You referred to empty fields, what do you mean by empty fields please? Jerry Jorden: If I said empty fields, oh, on the visual impact. I think that is what I was referring to. Empty in the sense that there is, that it is un-treed. It is not empty, it is used for crops, it is used for agriculture but what I was trying to compare was this site (indicated on map) which is screened and well set back, the mature trees, to a site that is sort of bald prairie, if you will, that sort of context. Donald HacDonald: So this then was an operating farm at one time, this 84 acres site, I take it? Jerry Jorden: This is still an operating farm in the sense that it is being cropped. Hayor Beard: Yes, Mr. MacDonald, I believe the farm is rented to a local farmer and he crops it. Donald HacDonald: Oh, I see. We are into a tenant now, tenant farming. Jerry Jorden: It has been in tenant farming for some time and we propose to continue the same situation. We are not changing a thing relative to the agricultural use of the property. As long as we can stay on the site that we want to go to. 8 Donald HacDonald: How can a farmer plan long term? I know of several farmers that are one year leases. How can you proper fertility. How, when you stop farmers from renting the place and mining it for one or two years and then, or several years and not putting back, looking after the soil correctly and just basically mining the place and then dropping it? Jerry Jorden: It has been under that situation, there is no way that a township or anybody, maybe I will give you a shorter answer than the longer one I was going to go into. There is no way that a township can regulate farming practices. You can't say in a Official Plan, you are going to farm this properly. Okay, so 8 8 , ' - 11 - Jerry Jorden: whether it is the farmer that owns it and wants to run it down so he can develop it for something else, or whether it is a tenant, you can't regulate that in planning documents. All I can say to you is that it has been tenant farmed, I think, for some time now by the previous owners and my understanding is that the same tenant farmer is going to and have been farming it since Dr. Elsey bought it and will continue. It looks like there are crops growing on it. I am no agricultural expert but it seems to be doing alright at the moment. Donald HacDonald: So then you would agree that with my generalization that this rural designation is basically an error then? It is designated rural. I believe that the area was put in as rural in error originally. I feel it should be agricultural. Would you not agree with that to some degree? Jerry Jorden: I haven't studied the entire area to really comment on that with any degree of certainty. The Ministry of Agriculture and Food didn't seem to have any, didn't raise any problems with regard that and I am sure, I mean recently when I communicated with them and I am sure that, in fact, I think I know almost from personal experience that they were fairly heavily involved in the Official Plan. Donald HacDonald: Originally, but things have changed since that time, I believe. Hayor Beard: Mr. MacDonald, I will allow one more question from you at this time and then allow other people to ask questions, so that they don't miss their chance. Donald HacDonald: Okay. I just basically have some comments, rather than questions, I asked a question, one of the questions is how can farmers buy land when other people, wealthy professionals come in and they can't even begin to compete with those people? They are making a commodity out of a resource and I feel that Dr. Elsey should be concentrating her practice in one of the areas that Ian Bender stated, I am in agreement with Ian Bender and I don't believe that this is in the proper and larger scale agreement with agriculture, but anyways. It should be basically directed to a hamlet areas of the municipality and here we go with some more creep and crawl, urban sprawl. Thank you. Lillian Hcconnell: I am Lillian McConnell and my property is east of the property in question. I am speaking for myself and my immediate family. I am not representing the community in any way. Personally, I have no objections in principal to Dr. Elsey trying to provide a community service and at this point I see that it doesn't have any environmental impact in that it doesn't destroy a non-renewable resource. It isn't on environmentally sensitive land and it doesn't leave a huge crater in the ground. So it has a few things going for it. I do have some concerns though. The first one is the pharmacy. When I think of a pharmacy in the sense of a rural situation, I have a strict medicine dispensing unit. Unfortunately, - 12 - Lillian HcConnell: 8 pharmacies also become general stores and I think something that has to be considered is the general store following a rural culture that we live in that belongs to Colleen & Charlie Micalle. If anything else is sold in that pharmacy, it could very well jeopardize their livelihood and the nature of our general store. So that would be a very important concern of mine and probably the neighbours of these people who are trying to make a living. so, I want to make sure there is no, that this doesn't become a video shop, Mike's Milk, you know, with a pharmacy stuck on the end. I think that would be a major mistake in this region. They only use a very small part of the property and we have been guaranteed, I think, that because of the regulations, nothing else can be done, like, surprise we have got another subdivision, ok, nothing can happen like that and that is not just because we have a Council here that is very responsible in their planning but if this can be guaranteed that this won't happen. My third concern is the road factor. Have you and your consultants met with the Township Road Engineers to see if there is a possibility of going out onto the 8th Concession? It means a longer and more expensive way of getting to your practice, but you would be feeding onto a road that is already going to have turning lanes that have to be erected. So that is a possibility that could perhaps be looked at. I don't believe it will cross environmentally sensitive lands and I do believe that it is far enough back from the juncture of County Rd. 22 and the 8th. So that is a concern and that is very dangerous. I live just up from there and you cannot get out that way no, so let alone when seven thousand more cars are going to be travelling it. So, one, the concern is please don't push Charlie and Colleen out of business. Two, absolutely no development if this you know this service could be very good for our community and three, protect us all by not having more traffic areas by perhaps pushing it out onto the 8th. Those are my main concerns and one other. How far reaching are the zoning limits, the part that is rural, so say, now I am just going to use, if Bill wanted to rent that farm for ten years, there is a possibility that agricultural use will be ongoing. Is this what I understand? Dr. Elsey: May I reply? Hayor Beard: You may reply, yes. 8 Dr. Elsey: If it is zoned to put a health centre, it will be part, because it takes everything else. There is the east part of the property is grazing and low land, it is not good farm land. But the west side of the property is, two-thirds, is good farm land and will stay farm land ... Lillian HcConnell: Okay, so basically, if you could make sure that you are not pushing people out of business and that you are not going to add anything or risk to the Horseshoe Valley Road as it is and keep it farm land, I personally think you may offer a service to our community. - 13 - Norm Dalziel: Mr. Mayor, Council, Ladies & Gentlemen, I have no conflict of interest with the party, Dr. Elsey. I do not use her services, in fact, at the present time I am spending several thousands of dollars in Barrie getting a new upper plate and lower plate and those of you who have heard me speak before now know that I have got a different voice box. 8 Council in the past, ex-Oro, approved this home occupation and I might surmise that it was about three years ago, approximately. Now, I think a Council when they approve a home occupation, and if they have good planners, like the gentleman on my right here, then they should be looking ahead to the growth of this particular home occupation and saying, where will it go next? So in that regard, I think Council has a certain obligation to see that this enterprise can continue to grow. I am not saying that it has to grow here, necessarily, but you should look for some commercial location where it can continue. We have heard mention tonight about the hazards on Horseshoe Valley Road. I want to assure all of you that traffic is not necessarily the main hazard, unless you are considering the drunks and all those people that drive that road and throw their bottles out both north and south as they drive along. I know what I am talking about, because in the quarter of the mile of that road I walked it two springs back, and there were twenty- four alcoholic containers in that short piece of road. Now as far as the traffic is concerned, whether it comes out on the 8th or it comes out here, you are going to have approximately the same amount of traffic for a dentist or a doctor. Now, I will not say the same thing as far as additional occupations are concerned such as a veterinarian clinic. As far as the agricultural land is concerned, there are a couple of farmers on your Council who would probably give you better guidance in that regard than I can. I wish the enterprise success. Sharon Howes: I am Sharon Howes from Rowanwood. The question I would like to ask to Council is I would like to know if it is approved and it is rezoned commercial, what happens after it is sold? Would it still be commercial? Hayor Beard: Mr. Planner, I believe you can answer that. Hark Stagg: 8 The answer to that is yes, Mr. Mayor. Hayor Beard: I think the further answer would be on a site specific, can a use be changed to site specific zoning to say that this is going to be this and only this? Hark stagg: I would say yes, Mr. Mayor. - 14 - Sharon Howes: So you would have it zoned site specifically for a health centre and nothing else? If it sells, it would only be sold as a heal th centre and nothing else. They wouldn't amend the amendment to make it general commercial? Hark Stagg: 8 Mr. Mayor, I think the zoning would state, whatever way you want it, what use could occur on that property. The coming and going of owners would not be a matter that we would normally regulate under the zoning by-law. So, it could be sold five or six times, the use would be however, specified as per the township's by-law. Sharon Howes: But once it is rezoned commercial, which would be an amendment, it would then very easily done to reamend the initial amendment and change what the commercial requirement is for. If it is commercial for a health centre, somebody else bought it and said, well I do like commercial and Mike's Mart is that okay? If it is already a commercial health centre then it is easy then to change it to commercial, Mike's Mart, is it not? Hark stagg: Mr. Mayor, you might start with a general C-1 zoning which allows all sorts of commercial uses and without any other restrictions, you can hop from one to the other as you wanted. If however, you wanted to have a site specific zoning that said only a health unit or whatever, it was, that would be the way of it. To change that, the municipality would have to amend its by-law, hold a public hearing and go through the sort of meeting we are having tonight. Hayor Beard: So, in other words, what he is saying is you can zone commercial, but he said by zone and that would be very specific to say that you are going to have this use and this use and that is it unless you go back to the public meeting and go through the whole process again. You can be very specific in your zoning. Sharon Howes: Also, the hydrogeologist study you have. Would available to read? I would like a copy of that. that be 8 Jerry Jorden: The Township has copies and I don't know if we have any extras. It is a pretty thick document and I am not sure how many there are. But we can probably get you one or you can borrow the Township one, or whatever. Sharon Howes: Yes, I would like to read that. Jerry Jorden: I have no problem with you getting it. I am just afraid that twenty people are going to ask for it and we don't have twenty copies at the moment. - 15 - Sharon Howes: If it is here at the Township, I can come here and read it. John Hare: I am John Hare and I am presenting a brief from the Jarratt- Coulson and District Community Group. The OPA to establish a dental clinic on County Rd. 22 is what I am talking about. 8 Mr. Mayor, Mr. Deputy-Mayor, members of Council; we are appearing before you this evening to recommend that you reject the Official Plan Amendment now you. Our reasons for taking this position are two-fold - safety and the October 1994 OMB Hearing decision. The Board Chairman, Mr. Mills, granted approval of OPA 39 based on the Township's agreement that development along County Road 22 would be limited to (5) nodes - Craighurst, Horseshoe Valley, Sugarbush, Buffalo Springs and Price's Corners. This decision was clearly intended to prevent strip development. I would like to provide three direct quotes from the Chairman's decision: 1. Schedule 1 Paqe 4 "OPA 39 seeks to stop ribbon development on the south side of County Rd. 22 between Craighurst and Prices's Corners." 2. Schedule 1 - Paqe 6 "Mr. Watkin (Planning Consultant for the Township of OrojMedonte) described the corridor as a "brake on development, where development would only occur within certain nodes." 3. Schedule 1 - Page 7 "In Assessing the development potential of the County Rd. 22 corridor, Council does not wish to see the development of a continuous strip extending from Craighurst to Price's Corners." These inclusions as part of his decision are binding on this Township. At the same OMB Hearing, the proponents' traffic expert testified that with completion of the sabiston, Val D'Oro and Buffalo Springs Developments, the traffic on County Rd. 22 will increase three hundred per cent (that is, from current levels of approximately 2,500 vehicles per day to 7,500 per day). 8 As you probably know, the driveway of the proposed commercial operation is near the crest of the Beaton Hill and is hidden to eastbound traffic. We see this as a very dangerous situation considering the potential high volume of in and out traffic. Safe sight distance on a straight, level and dry road is 300 metres at 80 kilometres per hour. The actual distance from first sighting, after topping Beaton Hill is less than 150 metres. Visibility of the driveway westbound is also partially obstructed by trees on the property. We recommend Council reject this application because of these serious safety concerns and the clear violation of the recent OMB decision on Horseshoe Valley Road corridor. On the other hand, if the services proposed were to be located within Jarratt, Sugarbush, or Horseshoe Highlands (well away from County Rd. 22) there would not be a problem. In short, we welcome the services proposed for the area, but we are opposed to their location on County Rd. 22. 8 8 . ' , ' - 16 - John Hare: We feel that this recommendation is in keeping with the objectives of the Jarratt & Coulson Group - namely to support and encourage appropriate growth, while maintaining the quality of our rural lifestyle and protecting the natural environment. Hayor Beard: Thank you Mr. statements? Hare. Are there further questions any or Colleen Hicalle: I am Colleen Micalle and I am owner of the Coulson General store. I guess my concern is what else can go in there? If it is not something that requires water. Jerry Jorden: I may have to rely on my client for this but, my understanding of the situation is not that something goes away and something comes in its place but that what I outlined here is what we would like to do but if we can't meet the Ministry requirements, then we cut back. We take out those of these things that we want to do to get to the point that we can meet the Ministry requirements. In other words, if it turns out that the veterinary clinic gets us to a point when they work out all the figures themselves, and check our figures and they say, no you need 95 acres for a veterinary clinic, I don't thing they will but if they do, then we will cut the veterinary clinic out and maybe we will have to reduce some of the medical facilities as well, I don't know. But, to get to the point that we can provide those medical, whatever level of medical/dental facilities we can on 84 acres. So, I don't think the intent is if we can't do a vet clinic then we will bring in a shopping plaza. That is not what we are coming from, at least as far as I understand it. Colleen Hicalle: So somewhere in the development of all of this is that this would be specific. Jerry Jorden: This is what I was saying in my initial submission and I think Mr. stagg mentioned it as well in discussions about the Official Plan and zoning and so on. Our proposal to the Township is that it be very site specific in both the Official Plan, which is the policy statement as you know, and the Zoning By-law which is the regulation statement or control as to what is going to be allowed on the thing. There is going to be in the general nature of the uses that I described tonight. By the time that it is actually worked out, the actual wording, some of those uses may disappear because the Health Unit may raise some concerns after they finished doing the studies. It is isn't going to be wide open general commercial. Colleen Hicalle: Is that not what the zoning is for? Is it for wide open general? Jerry Jorden: No. The intent is to have site specific general commercial. Maybe I didn't bring that out strongly. 8 8 , . - 17 - Colleen Hicalle: You did at the meeting here. But on the letters and things like that it just said the commercial C-1 zone. Jerry Jorden: Well, if that is what it says, then I will give you this undertaking and I will certainly write to the municipality and if you give me your address I will give you a copy of it to the effect that we want, in fact, I am pretty sure I say it in my report that we want site specific zoning dealing with the type of use we are proposing. As well, I said, the Township suggested and I don't disagree with site specific, or at least, the former planner, with site specific on the rest of the property to, restricting any sewage generating uses on that area. So both sides of the coin. We want to do a medical facility, we are not trying to trick anybody or get into the thin edge of the wedge sort of thing. We legitimately want to get, well first of all, we want to get a dental practice going here but in longer term, we want to do a full health care centre and that is essentially what we want to do and the uses related to it. Colleen Hicalle: I think that is a lot of concern that I share in our community is that one that you come out with a dental practice and a doctors office which is not what I hear back in our community but it is the growth afterwards and I think that people need to be reassured whatever way possible that this is not going to turn into an empire or you know, a magnitude that is not sui table for our community. We are only ten minutes out of Orillia and we don't want or need a big, huge complex sitting in our community. Jerry Jorden: Mr. Reeve, or Mr. Mayor, I want to emphasise as strongly as I can that we don't want to do anything more than what I am describing to you tonight. In fact, we may end up doing less. Firstly. Secondly, even if we did or even if, under this scenario that someone else bought the place five years or ten years down the road and tried to do something else, the Health Unit standards and the Ministry of Environment standards of the day and they seem to be increasing daily, would pretty well eliminate or virtually eliminate anything more than what we are talking about now or even less than what we are talking about now. Because of the size of the property and the standards that they require for dilution areas. So I think the municipality and the residents can be assured as any as you can ever be that this is what is being proposed, this is what will be developed. That is all that is going to be developed and again, the worst case scenario is as the Mayor and I think Mr. Stagg has mentioned that if somewhere down the road, twenty years from now, who knows, if someone came in and wanted to do something else, then you have to go back through this whole process in any event. There is no guarantees on that but the interest here is to get a facility that the municipality, we feel that the municipality needs and can use along the lines of what we are seeing here now, not a commercial complex, not the start of a major development or anything like that, what I described tonight so that we can get the services to the people in the township and get some assessment to the township, that is not the major concern. Rather than having those people driving into Barrie or Orillia and we have tried to meet the planning criteria as best we can and you are always into this when you are doing a development into a balancing act of getting things - 18 - Jerry Jorden: into built up areas and meeting servicing requirements and transportation requirements and all the other things when we think we have struck a good compromise in that. Hayor Beard: Mr. stagg, did you want to comment? Hark stagg: 8 Not on that, I have got some questions at the end. Connie Cochrane: I am Connie Cochrane, R. R. 4, Coldwater. You are right Mr. Beard, Mr. Jorden certainly has done a thorough job of his homework. I would like to reassure Colleen that possibly nothing will go on the site of the old barn as it happens to be built over a spring, maybe the vet wouldn't be too pleased. After hearing Mr. Jorden's comments, I almost wish that I could go home and re-write my letter because there is a lot of things that I would like to comment on but to me one thing that comes to mind is that it wasn't that many years ago that a proposal for a development came before the Medonte Township Council and it was turned down based on the feeling that no development was needed in that area and at the last presentation that I made before Council on the Gold Mountain Springs, I implore you, please put a freeze on development until we have a joint plan for the new amalgamated Township. Here we are sitting on the line between the two former Townships with an important issue and we don't have an overall plan. Now I have a letter here from myself and my husband Jack Seigel. Dear Mayor Beard and Council: 8 Official Plans are developed with the opportunity for full input by taxpayers in order that they may truly represent the desires of the residents. Elected politicians are installed in order to uphold the wishes developed therein. Oro-Medonte is currently in an interim situation with two plans to be considered, and although we are not entirely familiar with both Plans, it is our impression that development is to be directed to certain designated nodes and is not to occur at random throughout the rural area. There are appropriate areas for health centres, etc., but not in the middle of the rural area. To date, site selection for development appears to be based simply on what property is available and regulations are then amended so the plan fits development rather than development fitting a plan. Obviously the development at Buffalo Springs is a drawing card for developers and it is the very thing that many of us have feared. In Dr. Elsey's most recent mailing to neighbours, she makes reference to traffic surveys along Horseshoe Valley Road. Of course the most recent addition to the ever-increasing traffic problem, and not included in the statistics, is the one that has been dropped on us courtesy of the Ministry of the Environment, who issued a permit to haul water from the 9th Concession. Dr. Elsey also states that most councillors loved the idea of a health centre. I doubt that anyone dislikes the idea of a health centre. Many of us appreciate the new Foodtown in craighurst. It is appropriately located. I'm sure Dr. Elsey's current patients would rather drive a few extra kilometres to her office than see the countryside torn up by development. Throughout southern Ontar io we see too many examples where random development attracts further development and strings are formed rather than nodes. - 19 - 8 As you know, we are located directly across Horseshoe Valley Road from the land in question. In dealings with the former Medonte Township and the Ministry of Agriculture, we learned that we are in a designated Agricultural Zone and fall under policies intended to protect agricultural land from being developed, or from becoming fragmented. Presumably, these policies do not stop at Horseshoe Valley Road. If we wanted the city, we would live in the city. We do not want the city to come to the country. The residents of the new amalgamated township clearly elected a council that represents a conservative attitude toward development and a caring attitude toward the rural life-style. We trust that you will act on behalf of the electorate and uphold the present Official Plan and zoning. Dave prentice: 8 My name is Dave Prentice, Mr. Mayor and Councillors. I am a new resident to the area, I have lived here about two years. My reason for being here and Dr. Elsey is not my doctor but I do have a real need for services. What I have found in the area here is the lack of services. I think some of the comments made are certainly legitimate and stem from concern but maybe not from a position of looking at a. development of this potential. It is not a strip mall. It is definitely not a strip mall. I sit there and I say I think it is ideally located for me personally. I have to think about all the other people in Oro and the Cathedral Pines, Horseshoe Valley Highlands and maybe some of the new developments. For example, today I did a little test, I drove from my house past nineteen driveways to reach that property. I went on to the drug store in orillia, past 250 driveways. If we are going to make the road have 300% more people, I think you have to appreciate the amount of traffic that will go by the driveways. If I go the other way to Barrie, I think it is probably worse. If I go to a veterinarian, I have to go to Orillia right now, I don't know if there will be a vet there or not but I had three occasions last year. I go to the one on the way to Orillia and I don't know but that is the one I go to. In terms of traffic, if there is a 300% increase, people going out of these driveways, that is really an issue. The issue of service, now I go to the doctor tomorrow and I am driving to Toronto which is really a shame because I cannot get a doctor in orillia right now on a short term basis. That probably is because there is either a lack of doctors or lack of facilities. I think in the long run when you listen to reports last week about the difficulty of attracting professionals to rural areas, we will all suffer and that is not only me but you too and all the people in the room here. You are the people who are against this. But I think the people that are against this should really think about that this has been well positioned to kind of allay all of their fears. It certainly is not a strip mall. It is not a strip along a street and it is in a very central location and it abuts a hamlet. I think Dr. Elsey when I talked to her, I mean her concerns are not to build something as a wealthy professional. Thank God we have wealthy professionals and thank God we have good services but if we drive them out, which is in fact what we are really doing, we are just driving people down the road further. So I think she has done a very good job and I would like to congratulate her. Ed Hall: Mr. Mayor, Mr. Deputy Mayor, members of Council, Ladies and Gentlemen, there is another item that I just thought about sitting here that might be useful to Council in their considerations here. It is the OMB decision on OPA #37. Paraphrasing the Chairman, or the OMB Chairman's decision in - 20 - Ed Hall: 8 that review. He said something to the effect that Council is not allowed to redesignate lands to commercial if in doing so result in traffic hazards in adjacent provincial or county roads. I submit that it is pointed out in Mr. Beards, Mr. Hare's presentation that this driveway is less than 150 metres contrary to the other evidence that is given from the crest of the Coulson Hill. It constitutes a very sever hazard particularly when you consider traffic of up to 250 cars a day negotiating that entrance. The safe stopping distance, as Mr. Hare quite properly pointed out is 300 metres on a straight, dry, level road. As everyone knows, this is a definite down grade and it is frequently not dry and the average speed in that area is probably closer to 100 kms per hour and in this situation, it clearly constitutes a very serious hazard and should therefore on the basis on the directive from OPA #37 alone, should be rejected. Hayor Beard: I think the concerns with the traffic is because some people go from Coulson to Orillia in ten minutes. Ted Beaton: Ted Beaton, Doctor, 8th Line. Mr. Mayor, Members of Council, Ladies and Gentlemen, I do not have a conflict of interest, I have retired from my practice. I really wish to point out that I agree heartily with comments by Mrs. Cochrane and I endorse the feelings of Jarratt-Coulson Community Group. I would like to ask a question of Mr. Jorden. Does the dentist, vet, doctor and pharmacist plan to live on that site? Jerry Jorden: No. Ted Beaton: It struck me as a doctor, that is a potential area for drugs. It is isolated, it is well secluded on a long narrow driveway off a busy thoroughfare and it could be quite vulnerable to vandalism etc. etc. I think that those people who want push button service should have it around the corner from them and it should be inherently integrated into a larger community centre of which we have five designated nodes. 8 Jerry Jorden: Just briefly, again maybe I went over a few things too quickly at the start of my presentation. There will be an on-site security office. There will be drugs and pharmaceuticals and so on, on the site. There will be security on the site. There is no, don't get me wrong on that at all. This will not be an abandoned site in the evening for vandalism or whatever. There will definitely, if it isn't the police office that we talked about, this building (indicated on map) will have an on-site security office. Elda Hall: I am Elda Hall I live on the 8th Concession. the security office being built later on. first? You talked about What happens at - 21 - Jerry Jorden: Well, initially the security office will be there as soon as the facilities are there to warrant it initially. Maybe it will be initially, it will be up to Dr. Elsey ultimately, but my understanding is that the main concern about drugs and that type of thing comes when the doctors appear. I don't think the dentist are, you know, have those kinds of things that. Elda Hall: I think she has some. 8 Jerry Jorden: Okay, you know more about her practice that I do. I don't know, but in any event, the point I am making is if it is needed in phase one, it will go in phase one. My understanding was that it would be in phase two but if it is needed in phase one then. It will not be an unsecured site. Elda Hall: Another question. The 84 acres that is designated by the Board of Health or whoever to take up nitrates from the septic tank. On that large of a medical centre and what have you, your septic tank that you are saying you are going to put to the east of the medical centre which is down hill, what use is the other piece of property all up hill from it, the nitrates the aren't going to go up hill? Jerry Jorden: No, No. Firstly, that doesn't necessarily mean that that is where it is going to end up that is just the conception, the conceptual thing at the moment. Just to show you a location basically. I mean we have 84 acres that we can put it on if we have to but the main point is that you will have all of this ground water, I don't think it all actually flows this way on the site, to tell you the truth. I think there is some flows that start to the northwest here. The point is that you will have all of this free and clear to dissipate when it gets there, when it gets to the location of the tile bed as opposed to having, as I said before, additional development or a smaller lot where you could have those, the effects of the developments in here (indicated on map) then increasing, there would be an increased nitrates when it gets to the septic. So that is, well I am no expert on nitrates, okay, so that is my understanding of why they want. Elda Hall: 8 Well the septic tank is going to be east, which is going to be downhill, from where, and it goes down into the wetlands near the 8th. Jerry Jorden: The wetlands in here. Elda Hall: It goes further than that. But the septic tank will drain into the wetlands there eventually and the nitrates. Okay, another question. Is your pathological waste, the medical offices, dental offices, veterinarian offices, there is lots of pathological waste that you are going to have. What is going to happen to that? - 22 - Hayor Beard: I think Dr. Elsey will reply to that. Dr. Elsey: 8 I am regulated by the Government and I have red garbage bags that have to be labelled so that anything that is used in the dental office has to go into a red garbage bag and the garbage collection can be identified. And I have special collecting tanks. I have a company called "Welchem" which comes and takes the special chemicals on a regular basis. Elda Hall: Well that is what my concern is, you are on a septic tank and you are going to have medical waste. I have wondered before what you do with the medical waste from your house and I didn't question it before but. David Beard: I don't know whether I will be able to speak here but I will try and get it across anyway. This road that we have going past here, the Horseshoe Valley Road, is there any proposal of any changes between Coulson and Price's Corners in the next near future? Hayor Beard: Okay, I am on the Roads Committee in the County. There has been no money budgeted for a change in the road from the County. There are requirements under Amendment 39 that the developers or the County and I believe it might be the County, if I am not mistaken, has to provide turning lanes and some improvements but the County has not budgeted anything for that this year and I don't think it is in the budget for next year either. David Beard: 8 Okay, well I would suggest that because of that, that all things that we can freeze until that road has been improved. I don't know how many of you people have ever driven a large truck down that road. The area between Coulson and the 9th Concession, well lets put it this way, a high loaded truck, it isn't even safe to drive on it anymore than about 20 miles an hour because if you hit a bump, the sway, especially on a single axel truck, it will put you right off into the ditch because the crown in the road is probably almost a foot high and it shouldn't be anywhere near that. Now if we are going to have 300% more traffic in this area in the next few years, I would suggest that you fellows as Councillors and Mayor and Deputy Mayor and whoever else was working on this situation, you better get after them because the amount of accidents that you are going to create by doing this will stagger you. This road is getting worse, it is not getting better. The saggy area from Richard Anderson is up until where Mr. Doth is, is a very deadly thing. The same area from the 8th, the corner of 8th Concession up past that driveway, I would say the fall on the west side of the road is very close to 15 inches, maybe even a little farther than that in some spots. To bring all this extra traffic in here. - 23 - David Beard: I have nothing against our good doctor here wanting to build a place. I still think it should be in the nodes that they have designated but before all this stuff goes on, including Buffalo Springs and everything else, if we don't do something about this road, somebody is going to get killed and it may be you or I and that bothers me more than anything. All this stuff doesn't mean anything. Hayor Beard: 8 I am quite well aware of your concern, I use to drive my motorcycle up there and it is not just the traffic, the morons that are driving on the roads is one of the problems, and maybe I am one of them, but I am quite concerned with what you are saying about the level of the road, I know exactly what Dave is talking about, especially if you are behind a big truck and you watch it go like this (indicated with hands). David Beard: Like all we have to have is black ice one day like that and there will be other accidents. How can we handle all this stuff, bringing all this stuff out and all these other things without doing this. Why do we go about doing everything backwards? Norman Dalziel: Mr. Mayor, could we have this gentleman's name please. Hayor Beard: That is David Beard, David Beard: I am David Beard and I live at Jarratt. Hayor Beard: I think I should know his name, he has got a hair cut anyways. Ed Toal: 8 My name is Ed Toal and I live in Oro Hills. I support Dr. Elsey's plan. From what I hear and from what is presented so far is I want the services but not in my back yard and I would like to comment on some of the concerns that have been proposed so far. If I go to a dentist or doctor in Barrie or Orillia, I travel a lot more miles on Horseshoe Valley Road than if I go to the proposed site. So I think it is going to reduce the total traffic on Horseshoe Road that would otherwise occur. As far as the Coulson General Store, I like shopping there and I think it is a great place. I think that the proposed site might even encourage a little more traffic by the Coulson General Store. As far as the people that would like to see the plan for the site down some concession road, I really can't understand that thought because it is going to be as many people turning down that concession as there are turning into the proposed site. Of those who want to keep the country environment, I agree with that 100% and I think that Dr. Elsey has done a great job in the proposed location, the layout and plan, treed area and would sort of add that contrary to the statements of concern here, one was saying that we don't want a strip mall and then the next . ' - 24 - Ed Toal: person got up and said, well this is going to be a treed area, it is going to be secluded, so what about the drug problem. Well, whether there isn't a strip mall, there is a secluded area and I think she has done a good job of making it quite a nice secluded area. As far as the nodes are concerned, development being made in the node. I think the Ministry of Environment has dictated that you can't put it in these nodes because there is not 84 acres in the nodes. 8 Dave Wilkins: My name is Dave Wilkins and I Ii ve on the 8th and I am a N.I.M.B.Y. and proud of it. I moved here just ten years ago from the far north in Canada, in northern Manitoba and one of the reasons that my family selected this area when we moved here was because of the character that it had then, ten years ago, which I must say that it was a heck of a lot more rural than it is now. In that past ten years, we had a 250% increase in the number of residential homes on our two mile strip of road that we live on, the 8th. That all happened within the past six of those ten years. There has been other growth during those ten years and one of the things that has grown during that time has been the number of meetings like this, where public have to get together to voice opinions about various kinds of proposed development. I don't remember there existing groups such as the Coulson-Jarratt Ratepayers Associations ten years ago. Not just in Coulson and Jarratt region but anywhere in the vicinity because there wasn't the need. Now obviously things change and things have. Now we have nodes and before we had hamlets, we now have nodes which are different from hamlets. Different locations too, not adjacent to hamlets. These nodes are new and what I want to know is if this is the only process that we have to prevent those nodes from growing and merging? We have a plan, we have things zoned. The nodes occurred as a result of changes to that plan. Is there anything to prevent continuous changes of that plan until there is nothing but nodes. One thing that I have noted is that with every change that is made, new changes are more likely and they are most likely adjacent to the changes that were made, yes and that is where the node concept, I guess came from. If this process continues, then the likelihood of changes will also increase as more changes are made. 8 What is to prevent site specific rezoning or (inaudible). Why couldn't that become at some point in the not too distant future, I mean if things change as much as they have in ten years, in the next ten years, maybe we will have a theme park there. Well, it is not beyond the realm of possibilities or perhaps my own 70 acres or so could be a nice gravel pit. That isn't the question I know, but I do have one. Is this the only process that we have? Because, I must admit that it bothers me to have to come here to try to protect a plan that should be self-protected. Hayor Beard: If I may explain that one of the things that Council is obliged to do and we really have no say in it is that if somebody approaches us and wants to submit an Official Plan Amendment, we -25 - Hayor Beard: would be far smarter to listen to and attend the public meeting and get some input from the public. Anybody can apply for an Official Plan Amendment at anytime on any piece of property and that is the process. Sometimes it is rather onerous. Are there further questions, because we can keep going on this all night but I think you are covering most of the areas? Greg Howes: 8 My name is Greg Howes. I am confused and I guess it is around the fact, I need some clarification. Is the designation for the entire 84 acres? Jerry Jorden: Our application or our intention, I forget the exact phasing in the application but our intention originally was to only deal in the amendment with the red area, more or less this area (indicated on map), but Kris Menzies in her report on it brought up a very good point and we are quite supportive of that and that is to amend the rest of the property. Not to allow any commercial, but only to prohibit any other uses in here (indicated on map) that could generate sewage. In other words, if we didn't do anything in here in the way of amending the plan, I think maybe there is a possibility there could be some other use go in there if it wasn't spelled out clearly that this was going to be what the Ministry sort of refers to as a nitrate dilution area it is just sort of undeveloped in terms of septic. So, in a sense, it is the whole property. Greg Howes: Yes and this is what is confusing me. I mean you are saying that you need the whole 84 acres for nitrate dilution. Yet the development that just went in was just approved through OPA #39 and I guess that is why I am confused. You know, they are putting 80 and 100 houses on similar sizes of land. Is it because it is commercial development that you are required to have a larger nitrate dilution area? Jerry Jorden: Basically, yes. The standard for commercial use is 25% of the standard of the residential, I will put it that way. In residential, you can go up to 10 millili tres, 10 grams per millilitre of nitrate in commercial you can go up to 2.5 grams per millilitre of the difference between what is there now. So a maximum is you can only do 25%. So there is quite a bit higher standard for non-residential. 8 Greg Howes: How big is the tile bed suppose to be? Jerry Jorden: The tile bed, I can't tell you. Greg Howes: Because that would be determined by the Ministry? I go along with what someone else has already said, and I really don't understand how the whole 84 acres can be used for nitrate dilution when a heck of a lot of it is going downhill on opposite ways. I mean, this comes to a crown and it is going different ways so obviously the surface water, anyway, is not - 26 - Greg Howes: going to dilute the whole place unless you have tile bed on either side of the hill. Hark stagg: 8 I may, Mr. Mayor, be able to help you. First of all, water under ground doesn't always go in the same direction as the slope on the top. As I understand it, the consultant is insistent that if this development proceeds, we want a fair amount of water coming through the area. You use the word dissipate. I think the correct word would be to dilute the sewage. Now, if the application that is before us tonight was only for this small area, and we were proceeding with it and we want to hammer in all these conditions to make sure it happens correctly. Legally, we are not able to go over the line into other property and hit them with regulations because they say, sorry, we are not part of the application. So, I think the previous planner clearly, just to enable the thing to be dealt with if it proceeds, and to cover off all of these controls that might be required, to designate the whole area. So the whole area will be subject to all of these restrictions and then when you come down to the zoning, just zone a very small little bit, for whatever you are going to allow in there and the rest would be zoned very restrictive, no development for ever and ever or whatever it happens to be. I hope that helps, Mr. Mayor. Greg Howes: Well, I am going to have to make it clear that I don't agree with that. I don't think the whole thing should be designated commercial, if that is what you are saying? What I am saying is designate and zone commercial here (indicated on map) and put this into some kind of special rural designation. Hayor Beard: A holding designation. Greg Howes: Yes, something like that. Hark stagg: 8 The main thing Mr. Mayor is that the whole area comes in the application so that we are able to put whatever conditions you want on it. Clearly, I think the consultant has a good point. You may decide to leave the designation the way it is. But tighten up on what is allowed within it. Hayor Beard: In other words, nothing could go on the rest of the designated, the designation could mean that nothing, absolutely nothing, would happen on the rest of the property, just exactly what was applied for and approved on the small area of the complex, the rest of it would be designated to be left as park land or vacant land or whatever and nothing could happen on it. Greg Howes: I guess the problem I have right now is that I haven't heard anyone here being clear about what is going to be the designation and that is why I have got a problem in even being, - 27 - Greg Howes: whether I am for or against. I think that for Joe Citizen, like I am, to make some decisions around being for or against this, I need something presented that is pretty clear and maybe it is just because I am an sick and I am not understanding exactly. Hayor Beard: 8 It is not easy to understand that when you are not involved in the process but basically, we would design a designation, the planner would design a designation saying that the designation is, that there is no other designation in the Official Plan, like C-1,5Z or something to that effect and that would be very specifically spelt out that this would include this specific purposes for which this application applied for. In other words, you could never have anything else on that zoning. That zoning and there would be no other zoning in the Official Plan like it. Jerry Jorden: Yes Mr. Mayor. Essentially, I am just referring, I just picked up my planning report that I supported with the application and that is essentially what I say in this report which again, there are copies available if you want to come in and look at it at the Township or I can get you a copy of it. Essentially, I am saying in this a number of things. One that all in the context that it be very site specific the Official Plan Amendment, obviously the zoning would follow that too. I don't want to just deal with zoning in terms of tying things down because if you don't tie it down in the Official Plan then that leaves room to manoeuvre in the zoning later. I am saying tie it down in both. I am saying in this, these are my suggestions to the municipality, they will get their own from the planner but I am saying that firstly the site should be site specific, it should contain a list of permitted uses which reflects the proposed development that limits the proposed expansion of the health centre into a wide variety of other uses, limits the possible expansion, sorry. The permitted uses which can be more refined in the Zoning By-law Amendment would probably include the following: dental offices, medical offices, professional offices such as those of a chiropractor, masseuse, optician, radiologist, general offices, a pharmacy or drug store, a security office or police office, a veterinarian clinic and accessory facilities. Now I include here a coffee shop or cafe, because that is not unusual in this kind of thing. But I am not. Before you go nuts back there lady, I am not now proposing that and that is why I didn't present it tonight because it does not fit within the nitrate loading. Anyway, a list of specific uses, whatever they are, okay, they will be along those lines would be in there firstly. 8 Secondly, I am suggesting a generalized gross floor area limit be included and that be implemented for the zoning as well. Third, I am suggesting that traffic related policies be included, along the lines of what the County was talking about with the access, etc. etc., traffic impact study, etc. etc. Fourth, I am suggesting that the site be subject to site Plan Approval so that you can get into the details of exactly where things go, rather than just general zoning. Fifth, that on site servicing be, would have to meet all the standards of all the relevant approval agencies, in particular with regard to water supply and sewage disposal and that would of course bring in the Health Unit's standards and requirements that we are talking about tonight. So, if you put all those - 28 - Jerry Jorden: things into the Official Plan then as I was saying to the lady earlier who was asking me about the potential here, that ties the potential down very tightly. Greg Howes: 8 Would you have got a nitrate load or the nitrate loading on 84 acres, you, again, I am making an assumption. I am trying to figure out how you come up with the 84 acres. Is that based on a potential square foot development or is it based on the number of people coming into the complex? What is it based on? Jerry Jorden: It is based on both of those things to a certain extent. It is much more complicated than we can get into all the details right now. As I said to the other lady who was interested in hydrogeology report, this lady here, you might want to take a look at that and which is again available to the Township. Essentially, it is primarily the number of doctors and the number of patients and the type of facilities being provided on the site. There is a flow factor for all of these various things. A doctor, there is a flow factor of a certain amount, sewage flow. A patient, there is a certain amount. The veterinary clinic, there is another formula that goes into that. But all of these things then get plugged in and you work it through. There is a formula that you then work through, that amount of flow generates "x" amount of nitrates and that then you plug in and that translates into acres and so you do a balancing act. You have so many acres and you sort of work back, you go back and forth. Greg Howes: So, is that based then on the potential for 305, I think your final figure was after phase four was 350 visits per day? Jerry Jorden: That was a maximum, that was our estimate of a maximum traffic loops, in and out of the site at full long term development. Greg Howes: 350 one way. That is 700 in total? Jerry Jorden: Yes, 350 two way trips. 8 Greg Howes: What is the potential square footage of phase four, all four phases? Not just the one phase but all of what you have there now? Jerry Jorden: As it stands right now, it would be approximately 17,000 square feet, I think. Hayor Beard: Thank you. Council do you have any questions at this time? Okay, we will continue on with questions from the floor. , . - 29 - David Beard: When you have commercial, doesn't it make it almost very easy to just divide that off and clear the property because every other commercial, I did it on my own property, so you commercialize that little piece and you can divide that off and leave the other separate and sell it off? Hayor Beard: 8 Okay, the only way, according to the information that we have is if you can come up with another way of treating your sewage, then you could get it severed off but the Ministry of Health wouldn't let you sever that off unless you have a sewage treatment plant to take care of the nitrate dilution. But also, the Township can designate. We have a situation now where a man applied for a severance on a commercial farm which was part commercial and it was turned down because you don't have to give a severance, it may make it easier, but if you have to use that section for that purpose, then obviously you can't. David Beard: But when you have it designated as commercial and the rest is rural, I don't know how you or the OMB or anybody else can. Seems pretty easy to me. Hayor Beard: It would be logical but. David Beard: This whole thing is logical. If we set this as a precedence outside a rural, or these nodes as they are so called. We are going to have, the next person you are going to see is Mr. Whibley and I can complain that he went and did it, he has the front of his property as well and make some of the front of his property. Like you are just going to go on and on and on. Hayor Beard: Well it was my understanding that it was what was going on the front of his property. David Beard: It isn't, they can't get it passed. Norman Dalziel: I 18 Mr. Mayor, Norman Dalziel again, and like a snowmobiler, I may be going out on thin ice but I would like to try to explain the 84 acres. We have to realize that it is the Ministry. The Province tells your municipality what you must do and what you can't do and the Province is doing it more and more. The Province designates that for the use indicated here, you must have 84 acres. That means that there will be no more nitrates develop on that property other than what has already been stated up front. For another example, particularly in ex-Oro, there is a school in Guthrie and an expansion was to occur at that school and the Ministry said you will have to have 150 acres for the septic system. Now what on earth would 150 acres cost adjacent to that school. As a result of that a SBR or a Sequential Batch Reactor, which is a small sewage treatment facility, is going in with that school costing several hundreds of thousands of dollars. So it is the Ministry that dictates the acreage or the type of system that you are going to have to take care of the sewage. - 30 - Hayor Beard: At the risk of prolonging things further, are there any further questions? We have to make sure that everyones questions are answered and hearing none, are there any further questions from Councilor the Public? Hark stagg: I have a couple of questions for clarification, Mr. Mayor. 8 Has the applicant investigated other waste water treatment technologies and if they are not being used, are they not being used because they are not technically suitable for the site or are deemed to be too expensive? Hayor Beard: Can anybody answer that question? Jerry Jorden: Perhaps I can answer briefly and Dr. Elsey can add to it. We have not investigated any other, at least, I have not investigated, I don't know if she did before I was involved but I don't believe so. Essentially, because, well at least since I have been involved, because of the cost factors. Hark stagg: Mr. Mayor, I asked the question because if there was another technology that did not require this 84 acre catchment area of water for the dilution, it would then introduce some flexibility as to the siting of the buildings and some of the arguments that have gone on, pro and con, buildings next to the hamlet and so on and that is why I asked the question. Hayor Beard: Dr. Elsey, did you want to respond to that? Dr. Elsey: Are you referring to such things like low flush toilets or are you inquiring as to things like sewage treatment, I am not sure I understood the question. Hark stagg: 8 I am referring, Mr. Mayor to any system that the Ministry would approve and accept for use. Dr. Elsey: I don't think that small an area has the money for you know, sewage treatment facilities, but we have approached the Simcoe County Health Unit about the low flush toilets but because the Ministry Guidelines are so new, and proposals like this are basically haven't gone through yet the Ministry Guidelines, they themselves have no guidelines and can't answer about the low flush toilets. The whole thing is brand new and other than what we have basically got and they have suggested to us in our initial conversation with the Health unit with Jerry Bruce that it would be just a normal septic bed that we would require in spite of the acreage. , . - 31 - Jerry Jorden: My understanding, and I am certainly not the technical expertise on low flush toilets or nitrate loading, but the low flush toilets wouldn't affect the nitrate loading, you still have the same amounts of nitrates, it is just the water usage is less. Hark stagg: 8 Next question Mr. Mayor is, maybe it is just information. Early on in the consultants submission, there was a reference made to the size of the development because there has been some rationalization of the number of the dentists and doctors that would be supportable by the number of people in the Township surrounding area. There was a fairly high number as I recall, is there some documentation how the applicants arrived at this fairly large number of doctors and dentists that the area could support that then leads to rationalizing this fairly large development, that could be filed at some point? Jerry Jorden: Yes, Mr. Mayor, I have got the information essentially from Dr. Elsey. We are not suggesting that seven or eight or ten doctors or dentists go here, I was just giving that as a general context. Hayor Beard: Well what I think Mr. stagg was referring to was that it would help Council if they had that information, if you have a study or something to verify that information. Dr. Elsey: When you graduate from school, one of the things they teach you (inaudible) so you have to look for a 1,500 population, per dentist to support, for one dentist, if you have two dentist, you need 3,000. Mr. Brown is the pharmacist, he has done a study for the pharmacy and he has found that it could support four partners in this area. We tried to phone Medical Association to see what figures they have got and they range from 550 patients per doctor to 3000. So, we took the low end of the scale and said 3000, there are at least twice as many doctors as there are dentists. So I tend to think that it is actually a very low figure. Hark stagg: 8 Mr. Mayor, I appreciate the difficulty of the question because of people going in or out of Barrie or Orillia and you name it, it is also material to note too that when you are counting the number of people per dentist, is to whether those people have dental plans or not. It conditions how much they spend. I have one other question and then a clarification Mr. Mayor. During the presentation, a number of times we heard the idea given to us that this was a good location that it used existing access point. If we went anywhere else, there would be a second access? ????? Those buildings are there and if they are not going to be used for a medical facility, she should still be able to use the house to get at least rental income out of it as opposed to closing it down for lack of access. Unless you do some type of joint access. , . . - 32 - Hark stagg: Well, I think that is our answer then. They wish to keep the existing access in case they want to keep the existing house as a residential use, if the clinic is put on another location, is that what I am hearing? Hayor Beard: That could be a negotiating point, I believe. 8 Hark stagg: Thank you Mr. Mayor. Hayor Beard: I am not sure if it is that easy to take away an existing access. Hark stagg: The last comment, it is really clarification, I think it was Mr. Hall but I am not sure, stated Council is not allowed to redesignate lands that would create traffic hazards on adjacent roads. My understanding is that Council has the prerogative to decide what amendments it makes to the Official Plan, which is subsequently approved by the Ministry of Municipal Affairs. In doing that, they consult with the road authority which may be the County or the Highways Department, as the case may be. Usually when listened to that advice but have the right legally to ignore it. Council would make its decision. Council decides whether or not finally there is a hazard. If the road authority, who may have an interest in the matter, decides that Council has made a wrong decision, they could take it to the Ontario Municipal Board. But I .did want to clarify that it is, in my opinion, Council's decision to amend the Plan and Council's decision as to whether or not the use creates a hazard. There is no prohibition from the OMB or anybody else on Council's prerogatives on this matter. Hayor Beard: That was part of Amendment #37, the decision came down as stated, pretty well what he said was, that part of the decision stated that Council does not have the right to endanger, it is rather a long statement. It is in Amendment #37. Are there any further questions from Council? Mr. Craig. Councillor Craig: 8 Mr. Mayor, I would like to ask either to proponent or the consultants. Tonight they referred about the nodes which are available for development along the County Road 22, my question is, the placing this development, not in one of those nodes, is the reason for that solely because of the necessity to have the nitrate carrying capability of the larger area? Was that the sole reason why this location was chosen rather than a location in one of the node areas? Dr. Elsey: That was one of two main reasons but the other reasons are the traffic is more dangerous to my patients if you are going into a high traffic area. Sugarbush is close to my practice and it is already recognized as a dangerous entry and there has been a lot of controversy about the Horseshoe Valley Resort down at the bottom and at the top as being dangerous intersections. , . . - 33 - Dr. Elsey: If you put traffic at a dangerous intersection, I think it is more hazardous and I think it is much safer for patients, anyone going to the facility, if approved, to go into an area of the volume on the Horseshoe Valley Road between Price's Corners and....... 8 Deputy Hayor Hartin: Through you Mr. Mayor to Dr. Elsey. I would like to pose a hypothetical question. If council were not to support this amendment, would you continue to carry out your practice in your present location or what would you do? Hayor Beard: You don't have to answer that it if you don't really want to. Dr. Elsey: I am not sure I should answer it but I have tried to investigate any areas that are commercially zoned that I can move into and there are none. None that I can move into to serve the population. We tried to use an Official Plan that was available and trying to use the commercial zoning that you have chosen and it did not go ahead. I am not sure again, of the reason it did not go ahead. I don't think they were related to the facility we are proposing. I think they were outside issues and so this is the second attempt because there are no other sites, I really wouldn't know which way to go next. Hayor Beard: I have asked for questions twice now so I will ask once more. Donald R. HacDonald: I am working on some assumptions. Say the hamlet of Coulson goes onto services, then would this not be, supposing this proposal was approved. The agricultural land in between, it is partly designated rural, would that not be somewhat of a logical extension, especially if those community services in Coulson were extended to this proposed specific facility? Hayor Beard: You are quite correct. If Coulson ever went onto services, a remote possibility, but if it ever had a sewage treatment plant in Coulson, then, the need for 84 acres would be removed. That is logical if that would be the case. However, I don't think that Council are prepared to assume a sewage treatment plant in Coulson at this time. . 8 Hr. Baker: Is there a possibility that the 7th Concession may become a major link between 400 and Highway 11, in which case Coulson might become a fairly major centre? Hayor Beard: Not at this time. The 7th doesn't go right through to the 400. We examined that possibility in Medonte of putting that road through at one time due to a development proposal, unfortunately the Coldwater River does run right along the road allowance and through the closed portion. .. . ,. . . , , . - 34 - Hr. Baker: A bridge is a possibility. Hayor Beard: It is a possibility that at some point that it, I think this Council, if I am not mistaken, looks on the 7th, at least south of Coulson, to this building, as a major arterial road into the Township. Hr. Baker: A possibility of a sewage treatment plant may be down the road. Hayor Beard: Given the present knowledge, no it is not that far fetched in the sense that it is possible with the development in the area. There being no further questions or comments, when being called for the third time, the Mayor in closing the meeting, thanked those in attendance for their participation and advised that Council would consider all matters before reaching a decision. He then advised those present that if they wished to be notified of the passing of the proposed By-law, they should leave their name and address with the Clerk. HOTION NO.1 Moved by Martin, seconded by Bell Be it resolved that this Special Public Meeting of Council (Part Lot 1, Concession 8, formerly Township of Oro) now be adjourned at 9:15 p.m. Carried. MA ~ ÍJ- ~~D I