06 15 1994 Sp Public2 Minutes
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T1rBN'.rY-SBCOND HBftING 1994 COUNCIL
Council met this evening
present:
@ 8:00 p.m. with the following members
Deputy Mayor Ian Beard
Reeve David Caldwell
Deputy Reeve Norman Dalziel
Councillor Donald Bell
Councillor Alastair Crawford
Councillor Walter Dickie
Councillor Murray Martin
Councillor Leonard Mortson
Absent:
Mayor Robert E. Drury
Councillor Joanne Crokam
staff Present:
Kris Menzies, Planner,
Cunnington, Administrator.
Gary
Mr.
Also Pre8ent Was:
John Wright, Ben Wright, Glen Bryenton,
Helen Bell S. D. Borins, A. Borins,
William Baker, Margaret E. Baker, Jean
Kendall, Djãnane M. Lemmon, M. J. Scott,
Ross Bradley, Velma Bradley, Shirley
Woodrow, Thelma Halfacre, Robert Ward,
John Hare, Loreen Rice Lucas, syd Smith,
Rick Hunter, George ochrym, Alex Ochrym,
Gary Handy, Lorne Van Sinclair, Violet
Ready, Stephen Woodrow.
Deputy Mayor Beard assumed the chair and opened the meeting.
eputy Mayor Beard opened the meeting by explaining to those
resent that this Public Meeting was to receive public comments
ith respect to a proposed Official Plan Amendment, pursuant to
rovisions of the Planning Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. P. 13. section 17.
he applicant has applied to redesignate certain lands described as
art Lot 21, Concession 12, formerlyoro (Ochrym).
0 date, the Council of the Corporation of the Township of Oro-
edonte have not made decision on this application other than
roceeding to a Public Meeting. Only after comments are received
rom the Public, Township Staff and requested Agencies within an
ppropriate time period, will Council make a decision on this
pplication.
otice of the Public Meeting was mailed out on May 26, 1994, to all
roperty owners within 120 metres of the subject lands. Notice of
he Public Meeting was also placed in both the Barrie Examiner and
rillia Packet and Times on May 26, 1994.
eputy Mayor Beard then asked the Clerk if there has been any
orrespondence received on this matter. The Clerk responded by
ndicating that no correspondence had been received.
he Deputy Mayor then stated that those persons present would be
fforded the opportunity of asking questions in respect to the
roposed Official Plan Amendments. The Deputy Mayor then turned the
eeting over to Ms. Kris Menzies, Township Planner, to explain the
urpose and effect of the proposed amendment.
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, Kris Menzies:
Thank you Mr. Deputy Mayor. As the Deputy Mayor has
already stated the property is located on Part Lot 21,
Conc. 12 of the former Township of Oro. Essentially the
proposal is an expansion to the north east, the Village
of Shanty Bay, sorry, Hawkestone, it has been a long
evening. The proponent has graciously put up an overall
map for us here is the Ridge Road and County Road 20 goes
up here to the Highway. The proposal is located in this
particular location (indicated on map).
The purpose of tonight's meeting is to afford Council the
opportunity to hear public comment on the proposal before
they make a decision on it. Basically, the proposal is
for a redesignation to expand the Village limits of the
Village of Hawkestone to allow for single family
residential development by way of plan of subdivision.
For a more detailed explanation, Mr. Deputy Mayor, I am
loosing my voice in any event, Mr. Rick Hunter is here
from Raymond, Walton & Hunter and he is the proponents
planner.
Rick Hunter:
Thank you Mr. Deputy Mayor. I also have with me this
evening, Mr. Gary Handy from Jagger, Hims and he will be
dealing with the preliminary hydrogeology on this site
because I am sure there is going to be some interest in
that component.
As Ms. Menzies indicated, we are proposing a residential
plan of subdivision on the property located north of the
Ridge Road and opposite County Road 20 and south of
Highway 11. Within the context of Hawkestone itself,
there is existing development immediately to the south of
the Ridge Road, the original core of the community is
located further south as well. The Cedarbrook
subdivision is not shown in this particular map but of
course, it is developed as well. As I mentioned, this
area here does have residential development as well and
the lots do not show on this particular map (indicated on
map).
The process that we are going through at the present time
is for the Official Plan Amendment. This is the first
step of a number of them that will have to be considered
as the concept goes from a very general concept plan to
a more detailed subdivision plan. The property will
require rezoning at some point and it will also require
a form of subdivision circulation. We have opted not to
have all three applications before Council at this time
for a couple of very specific reasons. Because we are
dealing with the expansion of the community we felt that
the Official Plan is the spot where you deal with the
principal of development, whether it is a good idea to
extend the community in that particular direction. Also,
based on the input that comes in at this stage, there may
very well be changes to the proposal that would be
reflected in a subdivision application and also changes
to the Zoning By-law that might be desired to reflect
either specific minimum lot sizes or a particular
character or some of the servicing that would go in. So
our purpose this evening is to consider the basic idea of
expanding the community in the direction or onto this
property and also to obtain input on identifying the
details that we are going to have to deal with further
on.
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Rick Hunter:
The property itself, our clients own the entire 96 acre
property. There is a small corner, about three acres of
it or so, that was designated commercial right at the
intersection of Highway 11 and the Hawk~sto~e Road ~r
County Road 20. I believe it was somet~me ~n the m~d
80' s I don I t have the exact date. That was redesignated
as c~mmercial. It has never been severed and it has
never been developed. But it is zoned and has the
Official Plan on it. Approximately 30 acres of the
property the area shown in pink (indicated on map) on
the plan' was proposed to be designated industrial under
Official' Plan Amendment #37. Our clients have been
involved with the municipality and have been working with
the municipality over the last couple of years on that
particular application. This is, of c~urse, one, of
approximately half a dozen of the ~ndus~r~al propert7es
that were being considered by the Townsh~p as part of ~ts
future industrial growth strategy. The residential
component, which is shown here in yellow (indicated on
map) would occupy about 45 acres of the property. So
approximately half of the property would be ~n the
residential designation. At the present time, based on
the hydrogeology report, preliminary hydrogeology that
has been undertaken on the site, we are proposing a
maximum of 34 lots for single family residential use.
The average lot size is slightly over 1 acre. The
minimum lot size is 2/3 of an acre and the largest lot
size is over 2 acres. Again, this is a concept plan,
these are not necessarily fixed, either the exact number
or the specific sizes of those. What we wanted to do was
to ensure that 'J\ could put the lots on the property. So
at this stage, taey are a concept, they are not fully
detailed.
There are two access points proposed. One from the Ridge
Road and one from the Hawkestone Road or County Road 20.
This would allow the proposal in our opinion to be fully
integrated as part of the community. It also allows in
effect, through traffic for the lots having an option of
going out either way. We are very aware of the Official
Plan policies and direction that recognize the Ridge Road
as a scenic road and we feel that it is important to be
protecting that. For that reason, there are no lots that
would be proposed to front or access off the Ridge Road.
There would be a municipal road allowance that would come
in with a properly designed intersection, but then the
access to it would be from the internal roads. There
would be nothing further from the Ridge Road.
There is an existing creek that runs through the property
and there is a man made pond that is located in this
particular location (indicated on map) there is a control
structure at the south limit of it. The creek then
continues on and crosses the culvert on the County Road.
It is intended that the storm Water Management on the
property will take that into account and will use that
particularly the man made pond as the basis for the sto~
wat~r syste~' that would be designed on the property.
Aga~n, that ~s something that will require more detailed
work, when or as the subdivision is proceeded.
(inaudible) tree lines that almost act as fence lines.
We have attemp~ed ~t this stage to design everything to
be able to ma~nta~n as many as those as possible. I
particularly refer to the ones that are along the
boundary of the property. But also, some of the other
ones that are located throughout the site. From my
perspective, that allows the overall impact of that
property to feel less. You would also have mature trees
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right off the back so that you would have something as
the proposal develops that will, will look complete right
off the bat. We are proposing to phase the development,
on here we show two phases (indicated on map) there is no
magic to even the number of phases that will be done.
The one criteria that we believe that would need to be
undertaken or considered are the servicing implications.
The proposal, the first phase has to be large enough to
be able to be serviced in an economical manner. As far
as servicing, what we are proposing at this stage is a
communal water system. It would become either part of
the existing municipal system or communal system that is
in Hawkestone or a free standing one. Again, that would
be subject to further discussion with the municipality
and obviously the capability of the existing system to be
expanded. Also, the septic systems, we are proposing
septic systems at this stage for the individual lots.
Again, the lot sizes have been geared to accommodate that
approach. We recognize the Ministry of the Environment
is coming in with a lot of change in regulations, so
again, it is something that is being done six months or
a year from now. There may be other questions dealing
with septic suitability that will be raised by the
Ministry, but that again will come later on.
The storm Water Management, a preliminary plan was
prepared by Deardon & stanton from Orillia. Again, they
propose using the existing pond to regulate the storm
water on the property so that when you leave the property
there will be no difference, basically, no additional
flows coming off the property as there are now. There is
a small area along the Ridge Road where some of these
lots, I am not sure of the exact boundary, where there
wÐuld be some storm water that would reach an existing
cuI vert along there. The engineers from Deardon &
stanton have indicated that it is a very small area that
is involved and there would be no, well there would be an
increase, it would not be a significant increase. They
would also be recommending standard erosion control
methods to control any surface water contamination during
any construction on the property. .
The current. designation of this portion of the property
is Agricultural and we have had a agricultural assessment
undertaken by Ms. Bev Agar and that has been reviewed by
the Ministry of Agriculture and Food. The conclusions of
the agricultural study is that the lands themselves are
limited for agricultural production. The physical
characteristics of the property, the location and the
number of the surrounding uses around the property itself
and the fact that it is abutting a community and could be
considered a logical extension of that community, all
affect the properties long term suitability for
agricul tural use. The assessment concluded that the
removal of these lands from the agricultural land base of
the Township would not adversely effect the agricultural
land base or the agricultural community of the Township
of Oro. This was supported, I believe, by the Ministry
of Agriculture and Food.
I don't think I will go into any more detail, we have
explored the nature of Hawkestone itself and we feel that
from the context of the community, there is a need for
additional residential development in the community. We
are aware of the other proposals on the country
Residential portion and along part of the existing
designated areas that are under consideration as well.
We feel that this would provide a third alternative for
development in the community that would in effect round
out that community.
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What I would like to do now is perhaps is to have Mr.
Handy deal with some of the hydrogeological issues and
the ground water issues, I think they are key to our
discussions as well.
Gary Handy:
Good evening. My name is Gary Handy and I am with Jagger,
Hims Limited and we are retained by the developer to
carry out a preliminary hydrogeological assessment of the
property. When we thought about our preliminary study,
we focused our study on looking at ground water
availability, development density for the proposed
development. We. decided to focus on off site water
quality. That is, we went around surveying some of the
water wells just off the property to see what the water
quantity was like, what water quality was like and
compared that with some basic chemical analysis and we
asked people questions about how well their sewage
systems had been operating. To back up a little bit,
just to give you an understanding of what the geology and
water bearing zones in the area are like, here is the
subject property (indicated on map) this line of section
runs pretty much north to south along Regional Road 20.
What we have in here is mostly fill type soil, they tend
to be silty sand to sandy silt with varied amounts of
clay. They tend to be very hard packed which gives birth
to the term hardpan that is often used for some of these
soils are very difficult for water well contractors to
drill through according to the laws. Within this fill,
we have three water bearing zones. We have the shallow
zone where some of the dug wells are developed, that is
noted by some of these wells here wi th the arrows
(indicated on map) showing where water wells are. Then
we have an intermediate zone that we call intermediate
aquifer and this is the aquifer that the Cedarbrook water
supply is in and some of the private water wells are
developed in. Lower down and just above the bedrock,
this is probably about 80 metres below ground surface is
another sand and gravel deposit that seems to provide a
reasonable amount of ground water for peoples water
wells. For the purpose of a communal water supply, we
suggested to our client that they consider exploring this
zone here where the Cedarbrook water well is (indicated
on map) or preferably the deeper zone where there are not
too many water wells developed in. It could very well be
hydraulically protected from some of the upper wells. As
we move to the south here, you will see that some of the
wells that are developed in this lower unit above the
lime stone actually have artesian heads. That is they
flow above ground. One last comments with regard to the
water supply, all of confirmation of ground water
quantity and quality are things that we would do in the
next phase of the development as part of the draft plan
application.
The. other part of our study that we mentioned to you was
a study to look at what water quality was like
immediately adjacent to the property because this is the
likely area.of environmental impacts if there are any off
si te impacts. So what we did, perhaps some of the people
we interviewed are amongst us here this evening, we went
around door to door to people along Ridge Road and the
11th Line and we asked them questions about their water
wells and"with their permission we obtained samples of
their ground water which we sent to laboratory for basic
chemical analysis. We look at sodium and chloride which
are associated with road salt and we looked at nitrates
which of course, are associated with agricultural
practices and sewage effluent. What we generally found
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Gary Handy:
was that of the 10 or 11 wells, people who were willing
to participate in the water quality assessment, was with
the exception of one contaminated well up here, and maybe
this is just from an agricultural practice or perhaps a
sewage system, we are uncertain, was that the shallow
wells had some nitrates in them already. They were still
within the drinking water objectives but there was some
nitrates. The wells deeper down, I will refer back to
this one here (indicated on map) the shallow dug wells,
the ones close to ground surface, those concrete casings,
had' some contamination in them. The wells deeper down in
this middle zone or in the deeper zone (indicated on map)
had much better water quality, really had not shown much
of any sign of contamination either from nitrates or from
road salt. So when we prepared our conclusions, we
cautioned our client that if he proceeds with the
development, the developer should be aware that there are
some shallow dug wells that are abutting the property
that are showing signs of contamination, again, either
from upgradient agricultural practices or possibly from
faulty sewage systems and that if this development
creates an impact or a further impact on their well such
that it causes poor water quality in a way that was
described by one resident here in the previous meeting,
that the developer would be responsible for replacing
those water supplies. We would follow that as
development proceeded through ground water monitoring or
however else the Simcoe County Health unit would like to
have us follow it, follow the ground water quality.
In the survey we also asked people how their sewage
systems functioned. We figure the best way to see
whether the soils were good or not was to see whether the
people had existing problems with their sewage systems
and none of the people who participated in the survey
indicated they had any diff icul ty at all with their
sewage systems.
I guess at that point, I would like to open it up to
questions, that is about all I have to say.
Deputy Mayor Beard:
Where was the testing done?
Gary Handy:
We sent it to a private laboratory that is recognized by
the Ministry of Environment. It is a reputable
laboratory. The Department of Health does bacteria
analysis, this laboratory will do or they will look at
organic and they will look at heavy metals. They don't
look at bacteria though. They send it off perhaps to
another laboratory, so it is a different kind of
laboratory. .
Councillor Mortson:
Is there a farming operation on it?
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Gary Handy:
Part of the property is still leased out, ,I th~nk it is
just for hay but I am not 100% sure. I don t th~nk there
is any crop development on it now.
councillor Hortson:
There was last year.
That is a good point because if it is a crop where ~hey
introduce agricultural fertiliz~rs then we c:erta~nlY
could be seeing some impact off s~te and that w~ll be an
impact of course that would be to this development.
Reeve Caldwell:
Deputy Mayor through to the Plan~er, I, h~ve two
questions. It was indicated you bel~eved M~n~stry of
Agriculture and Food did not have any concerns, you have
a letter from them, first of all, and secondly, what is
the class of the land?
Gary Handy:
Ok, on the agricultural capability maps, it is
approximately 60% Class 1, is its underlying designation.
The Ministry of Agriculture during the discussions on
Official Plan Amendment #37 had indicated that because of
a number of the other environmental features that the
things I pointed out, the small fields sizes, the
surrounding development, the conflicts that would likely
happen with any intensification, that it was not a
practical property to develop, notwithstanding that
original soil classification. The other constraint that
is on that property and I think it is in wi th the
environmental protection area and even the pond that was
set up, is the fairly high water table that I believe had
effected some of the long term capability for agriculture
on the property. We do have a letter that was submitted
by.the Ministry of Agriculture and Food, well actually,
for sure, when dealing with Official Plan Amendment #37
and also in the initial discussions on Ms. Agar's report,
~he had met with the Ministry and I believe they
~nspected the property as well and had given an
indication that they had no objection to it.
Reeve Caldwell:
I hear that the letter was with respect to the Industrial
par~ of ~he site but not specifically for the proposed
res~dent~al.
Gary Handy:
That is right, the Ministry of Agriculture and Food of
, , . , '
course, ~s c~rculated the Off~c~al Plan Amendment request
and hopefully will be providing formal comment directly
to the Township.
Kris Menzies:
If I could Mr. Chairman, Mr. Hunter is correct. We did
receive no objection on OPA #37 on the property and the
Reeve is correct as well. Although OPA #37 didn't deal
with this site, which is before Council and the Public
this evening. It dealt with the same farm property if
you want to categorize it that way. I did have an
opportunity to speak with Heather Garapy of the Ministry
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Kris Menzies:
about a month or month and a half ago, very shortly after
she reviewed Ms. Agar's report and yes, we do not have a
letter from the Ministry as of yet but Ms. Garapy
confirmed what Mr. Hunter is saying that in fact, she
does not have a problem from a Ministry stand point with
the redevelopment of the property. .
Reeve Caldwell:
The second point was, (inaudible) I know it was addressed
in the Industrial Development proposal, but I believe
when it came before the Planning Advisory committee there
was some discussion about because it was south of the
stream or drainage area, i twould make more sense to
have, if there is going to be residential development,
that it be included in the residential development, has
any-further thought been given to that?
Rick Hunter:
I think my presentation at the time was definitely yes,
we had considered the potential for residential and I
guess that the piece that we are talking about is this
particular portion of the property (indicated on map) it
is basically south and east of the environmental
protection area. At this stage we chose not to request
the amendment for it because of the current status of
Official Plan Amendment #37. There could be arguments
made and I think, very convincing arguments made that it
could be developed from a residential perspective. It is
something that I believe my clients would be prepared to
entertain either through this process or subsequent to
this at some point. .
Reeve Caldwell:
I just wanted to bring that possibility forward so that
if the public are commenting that it doesn't suddenly
appear as part of the development later and they say, how
come it wasn't addressed?
Deputy Mayor Beard:
Are there questions from the members of the public?
Please come forward and state your name for the record.
Loreen Rice-Lucas:
In regards to the proposed Amendment to the Official Plan
in the Township of Oro-Medonte, my submission is as
follows: While I have no overall objection to the
proposed amendment, I do have a serious concern about the
potential that 34 septics and residences would have to
adversely effect the wells and the surface water drainage
on the existing lots which border on the proposed
subdivision. I think you have mentioned this. Also, the
lady from Shanty Bay has also echoed my concerns.
Therefore, I request that the subdivider agreement
include the requirement that existing residential lots
bordering the said subdivision have the right to have
access to the same municipal water supply as is provided
by the subdivider to the residences in the proposed
subdivision.
Deputy Mayor Beard:
Which side of the road do you live on?
the same side as the subdivision?
Do you live on
. I
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Loreen Rice-Lucas:
Yes, we are on the Ridge Road facing south.
Deputy Mayor Beard:
Ok, we will have this letter as received as a submission.
Rick Hunter:
Again, we mentioned we did off site ground water
monitoring and think we will probably be doing more of
it. We hear your concern and if we do cause an impact on
water supplies that degrade your water quality to the set
Ministry of Environment or Department of Health says,
Hey, Mr. Developer, you are responsible for impairing
water quality, therefore, you will replace their water
supply, you can look at drilling a new well or hooking
you up to the communal water supply. We would like, if
there is a sufficient amount of water, you will have a
surplus availability so that when it does become time to
hook people onto the water supply if necessary, then we
can do that with the existing communal well on site.
Deputy Mayor Beard:
Any further questions?
Glen Bryenton:
My name is Glen Bryenton and I occupy the south part of
Lot 21, over the Ridge Road from this proposed
development. My concern is with water. As has been
mentioned previously, in Shanty Bay some of these
problems do not develop immediately. Although the
proposal by the individuals looking into this water
situation this fine brush for a few years, but if at a
future time my water is ruined because of having 34
septics across the road from me and I am across the road,
what guarantees do I have to have good water from this
development, that is question number 1. Question number
2, not this proposal but some time ago, I attended a
meeting here where there was going to be a development
behind me and I forget how many homes ..
Kris Menzies:
I think the proposal now is 36 or 37.
Glen Bryenton:
Is it still on the books?
8
Kris Menzies:
Yes it is.
Glen Bryenton:
So I will have a piece of pie ridged between two
developments and really with septics everywhere around
me, my water supply. It is very, very concerning and you
mentioned the culvert that runs across the road and comes
right onto my property. I know that they, there is a
section of that property that does slope towards the
Ridge Road and it goes back to the first line of trees
and it is quite high behind the hydro transformers, so I
, I
- 10 -
don't think that there would be any pr~blem there, al~
that property that runs behind me does w~nd down throug
the village or some creek.
Rick Hunter:
the details on any surface water would be dealt
~~~hs~~e~art of the subdivision and in ~act all has to ~e
identified and drainage culverts des~gned and set, p
accordingly. So that one would for sure be dealt w~th,
Mr. Handy wants to comment on the water as well.
Glen Bryenton:
And I think the size of the lots sho~l~ not be reduced.
Should be maintained as indicated a m~n~mum of 2/3 of an
acre and up.
Rick Hunter:
Ok, it is one of the ones that are pie shaped that you
end up getting very large lots compared to
Glen Bryenton:
And 34 homes is
Rick Hunter:
for both phase one and two combined?
Yes that is the total on the property and that is based
on the hydrogeology, the preliminary investigations that
were done on the site. I think as Councillor Caldwell or
Reeve Caldwell had indicated as well, this property here,
although not presently being viewed for that may have
some potential that way in the future, but again, that is
not part of the discussions at this stage.
Gary Handy:
Well to comment on his objection of ground water, again,
the Environmental impact discussion was based on
maintaining ground water quality below the drinking water
objective that is for nitrate for example the criteria is
10 milligrams per litre. The developer would not be
allowed to develop if it was perceived that the
development would exceed 10 milligrams per litre with all
the sewage systems operating together. Again, none the
less, if there is degradation of water quali ty and
peoples water quality is impaired then the developer will
be required to replace those water. I am not sure what
the legal obligation... .
Reeve Caldwell:
Deputy Mayor, my understanding from talking to the
Township solicitors in the past on various issues is that
once the municipality assumes the water system which is
usually sometime down the road, the municipality assumes
all the liabilities that go with it. So it is fine
to have the developers and engineers etc. and
hydrogeologists certify that everything up front is okay,
but if it fails down the road, it is the municipality
that is faced with the problem. (inaudible)
stephen Woodrow:
My name is Stephen Woodrow, Oro station. I have no
objection to the general theory of expanding residential
development around Hawkestone. My concern is that
, I
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stephen Woodrow:
whatever water course is in there, I am not exactly
familiar with it, the quality of water of the residents
that are already in Hawkestone and I wonder if, is the
Township's aquifer study finished or is it still in
progress? Did the Township not have an aquifer study
done?
Rick Hunter:
He is
Kris Menzies:
Yes,
year
referring to the Terraprobe study I believe.
the Terraprobe study was finished in 1993, about a
or a little more than a year ago.
stephen Woodrow:
So do you use some of that information for your own.
Kris Menzies:
Township wide study.
Gary Handy:
I used the report as we were doing the ground water
quality, which is why we also included sodium chloride in
our study. That was one of the recommendations in that
report.
stephen Woodrow:
The development that is to the south, I like that sort of
development for a community of that size, it is not
sporadical development, and I also would prefer that
based on the property, all of it be residential instead
of industrial proposal that has already taken place. Now
the Township's industrial amendment was defeated at the
OMS and I understand that the Township is in Court now
over that and the OMB, I don't believe there was ever any
mention of residential development component at the OMB
hearing and was there?
Kris Menzies:
Yes there was.
stephen Woodrow:
I was at the OMB hearing and I wasn't aware of an
application..
Kris Menzies:
If I could Mr. Chairman, Mr. Hunter did mention to the
Board in his presentation regarding the industrial
component that there was a plan to put residential south
of the property. So the board was aware of it.
Reeve Caldwell:
Mr. Deputy Mayor, just a point of clarification, the
municipality had not received any application to
. I
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Kris Menzies:
No that is correct.
Reeve Caldwell:
Because I was not aware of any residential development
unless it came forward at the OMB hearing.
stephen Woodrow:
So how serious does the OMB take that, would they even
consider that when they make their decision.
stephen Woodrow:
I don't think the mix of industrial and residential is
proper. I would like to see, if at all, it being
residential.
Councillor Crawford:
Yes, I was at the OMB hearing and at the OMB hearing it
was indicated that this industrial commercial area would
border on the Village of Hawkestone even though there was
still space left to expand. So it was considered that
the expansion of the Village would come into the
industrial area or the industrial commercial area
(inaudible). Well the proposal was before the board,
that the Village would expand to that area.
stephen Woodrow:
And the board turned that all down.
Deputy Mayor Beard:
I think we can worry about the OMB all night if, they can
make their own decisions.
Further questions on the development?
John Hare:
By the Official Plan, this is going by it really in
respects of going to and abutting Hawkestone and the
Official Plan says that is where it should be developed.
The only thing I would say is, I have been away for the
last six weeks and I understand that there was a new law
passed or presented to the Provincial Government that as
of the 15th of Mayor something and it deals with
subdivision water, sewers and things like that.
(inaudible) so all this comes out because this has to
deal with all new subdivisions I believe. I understand
it was given first reading with the Provincial Government
on the 15th of May. I just heard about it the other day
and I can't give you any more because as I said, I have
been away for the last six weeks and I just heard about
it, but all I would say is that until that report comes
out or we find out about that Bill, this subdivision is
premature because it could have a lot to deal with this
type of subdivision, with septics and water and things
like that.
eputy Mayor Beard:
Kris, are you aware of what he is referring to? It might
be the Sewell Commissions recommendations.
--
- 13 -
Kris Menzies:
Yes I believe the Bill number is 163. It is the
res~onse by the Minister concerning the sewell, Report ,:nd
it has received first reading in the House, ~t ~s go~ng
through its normal process.
John Hare:
As I said, I have been away over in France for t~e last
while, I just got back and ~ just heard about ~t so I
can't give you any more part~culars.
Glen Bryenton:
Just a quick question again about the Johnson
development, is that an expansion also of the Village?
Kris Menzies:
I am going to try and choose my words ca~efullY= From a
planning perspective, expansion of the Y~llage ~s, wo~ld
be in one of two categories. V~llage commun~ty
Residential Phase One or village Community Residential
Phase Two. The Johnson subdivision is proposed as a
Country Residential designation. So for all intents a~d
purposes, yes it is an expansion of the village but ~n
regards to planning terms, it is in a different category
than most of the remainder of the village is in. That
designation was placed on the property and I am going to
guess, twelve to fifteen years ago by the ontario
Municipal Board. More recently, Mr. Johnson, the
developer of the property has come forth and asked for a
zoning on the property. But the principal of development
was established by the Board over a decade ago.
Deputy Mayor Beard:
Any further questions regarding the proposal before
Council?
Rob Ward:
Mr. Deputy Mayor, my name is Rob Ward and currently I
reside in Newmarket but my wife and I are looking at a
property to purchase that abuts the proposed residential
communi ty . I have one concern that I have not heard
addressed here, it was sort of hit on a bit the fact that
Agriculture and Foods Canada or the Ministry thereof has
said that the farm is too small (inaudible) some crop
that doesn't need a lot of fertilizer but what is the
impact of the lawns and the gardens of 34 new houses
being weeded and feeded four times a year on the water
course and not particularly wells but where does that
water flow? Does it flow into the Hawkestone creek and
work its way all the way down and into Lake Simcoe? It
is something I think we have to really take a look at.
It is going to have a great impact on quality of the
whole Town and the whole community along the way because
all of that is going to be dumped. I know in Newmarket
,:ll the things that I put on my lawn, eventually end up
~n the south end of Lake Simcoe. You keep dumping and
dumping and dumping, it is a real concern that we should
look at now. That is my first question.
Deputy Mayor Beard:
That is a very valid concern. (inaudible) I don't think
you have answered that question. (inaudible) Are there
any further questions on this proposed development?
, I
- 14 -
Ross Bradley:
Deputy Mayor, thank you very much. A question or two for
Mr. Hunter. Basically, when was Ms. Agar's study done?
Was it done in relation to OPA #37?
Rick Hunter:
The initial review of Ms. Agars' was done in connect~on
with OPA #37 and then there was subsequent rev~ew
undertaken as part of the residential component,
specifically, she has done basically two portions to her
evaluation in effect a year apart.
Ross Bradley:
I see. Amendment #37 is still before the Court as I
understand it. What happens? I am not sure that I wish
to establish a scenario for you, if it is defeated what
then? If it is successful, what then? If it is
successful, obviously you intend to have a housing
development abutting an industrial park. If it is
defeated, obviously, in my estimation, you will then take
the industrial park proposal and turn it into
residential. Is that a reasonable scenario to establish?
Rick Hunter:
It is difficult to speculate one way or the other but
certainly I think that if the Divisional Court were to
defeat particularly that portion and if Council was of
the opinion as well, that it should be looked at from a
residential perspective, I think I mentioned earlier that
my clients would be more than happy to adjust the
boundary between the two to accommodate that. There are
reasons, there are decent reasons both ways on the
designation for industrial and then also for the
residential on it and again, it could go either way.
Ross Bradley:
I would suggest both to Council and to you that your
proposal is premature.
Deputy Mayor Beard:
Ok, any further questions?
Bill Baker:
My name is Bill Baker and I am from Hawkestone and there
is a gentleman over here that said if anything went wrong
with the water, they would supply water for us. I would
like to see that in writing in case in years to come in
my family they have water because we had (inaudible)
Rick Hunter:
Mr. Baker, whereabouts do you live?
Bill Baker:
We live right across from where your property is.
by the Bell telephone.
Right
.
- 15 -
Reeve caldwell:
Mr. Deputy Mayor, some of the residents have indicated a
concern about the water supply and there has been some
indication in the past that other proposals in the
Village, that some people would consider hooking onto a
municipal water system if it were expanded. Some thou<!ht
may be given to connecting the Cedarbrook system w~th
this one if the development goes forward. Would it be
reasonable that perhaps, a local improvement could bring
all those other people currently in the Village,
certainly within reach of that, onto a water system. How
many people are on drilled wells now, how many would,like
to have a municipal water supply rather than a dr~lled
well or dug well. The thing with dug wells is they end
up being contaminated from the surface, whether it is
from farm use or other failing septic systems, often even
on the own persons own property.
Reeve caldwell:
Often it is the neighbours property. Some of the lots in
the village are very small. They are not large enough to
put a replacement septic system on. I am aware that a
few of them have holding tanks, simply because they can't
site both a well and a septic system on their lot.
Particularly the ones below the Ridge.
Bill Baker:
Mr. Caldwell, to answer your question, ours cost
$7,000.00 and it is a drilled well. There are a lot of
people here from Hawkestone who wouldn't want to spend
another $7,000.00 to bring someone else's water in if
they are satisfied with what they have got.
Reeve Caldwell:
Mr. Deputy Mayor, I brought that question forward because
I knew there were some other people like Mr. Baker who
paid for drilled wells who wouldn't be too keen to pay
for a municipal water supply but there are others who
haven't. So it would present a real problem if you do it
either way.
Deputy Mayor Beard:
Are there any further questions on this proposal before
Council? For the second time, are there any further
questions on the proposal before Council?
Councillor crawford:
I just have a comment with respect to contamination. A
rule of thumb over the years has been, you can put one
animal unit per acre and that is equivalent to five
people. So with a family of three and a half, on
average, if you had two homes per acre, it would be
equivalent to farm use, provided you weren't using
commercial fertilizer. If you use commercial fertilizer,
it adds to this. So you are quite safe at one home per
acre but a 50% safety factor and you don't have
commercial fertilizer, so you are going to have a much
better water supply with a development like this with
this size of a lot beside you than you would have with a
farm there. A lot of the contamination that we run into
(inaudible) the subdivision, its agricultural where you
are growing corn for instance where they put 125 lbs. per
acre of nitrogen on for years which perhaps if your crop
-
, '
,
'\
- 16 -
is, if you have an average crop you fertilizing for a
bumper crop and if you only have an average crop then
half of that is left, you contaminate your gr~u~d,water
so you are going to be much safer with a subd~v~s~on of
this than you would ever have with agriculture. So just
to put your mind at ease, development on this size of a
lot an acre lot, is certainly very, very safe compared
to ' living beside an agricultural establishment.
EspeciallY with an establishment that uses fertilizer,
even nowadays. (inaudible) So, just to put your mind
at ease as far a development is concerned. If I were
living beside an area like this and someone is going to
develop it, instead of growing corn as a cash crop, I
would be more than happy to see it happen.
There being no further questions or comments, when being called for
the third time, the Deputy Mayor in closing the meeting, thanked
those in attendance for their participation and advised that
council would consider all the matters before reaching a decision.
He then advised those present that if they wished to be notified of
the passing of the proposed By-Law, would they please leave their
name and address with the Clerk.
KOTZON NO.1
Moved by Mortson, seconded by Dalziel
Be it resol~ed that this Special Public Meeting of Council Part Lot
21, Concess~on 12, (Oro-Ochryro) now be adjourned @ 8:43 p.m.
carried
6-~- ÆL~t/
DEPUTY MAYOR IAN :BEARD
L); A <tl ¿If ,j ~ n¡;¡L)J . d9'""~
1)ARLENE SHOEBRIDGE, CLERK