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03 16 1994 Sp Public Minutes ftB CORPORATION 01' TB:B TOWNSHIP 01' ORO-1IBJ)()N'TB SPBCDL PUBLIC DB'lING WBDNBSDAY. lG.RCH 16. 1994 «I1tOO P.M. - COUNCIL CHAKBBRS TBNTH DB'lING 1991-1994 COUNCIL The following members of Council were present: Mayor Robert E. Drury Deputy Mayor Ian Beard Reeve David Caldwell Deputy Reeve Norman Dalziel Councillor Donald Bell Councillor Alastair Crawford Councillor Walter Dickie Councillor Murray Martin Councillor Leonard Mortson Absent: Councillor Joanne Crokam staff Present: Kris Menzies, Planner, Gary Cunnington, Administrator, Andria Darby, Zoning Administrator Also Present Were: Jim Kyle, Rocke Robertson, R. Al Sinton, R. & D. Suwala, Hartley Woodside, Brian & Siske Pratt, Jean Crawford, Shirley Woodrow, Mary Dion James sabiston, Ernest Bidwell, Don Bidwell, Robert Bidwell, John Hare, E. M. Hall, Gary Thiess. Mayor Robert E. Drury chaired the meeting. Mayor Robert E. Drury opened the meeting by explaining to those present that this Public Meeting was to receive public comments with respect to a proposed Official Plan and Zoning By-Law Amendment, pursuant to provisions of the Planning Act, sections 1 and 34. The applicant has applied to rezone certain lands described as Part of Lots 35 and 36, Concession 1 E.P.R., formerly Township of Oro. (Copeland). To date, the Council of the Corporation of the Township of Oro- Medonte have not made a decision on this application, other than proceeding to this Public Meeting. Only after comments are received from the Public, requested agencies and Township Staff, within the appropriate time period, will Council make a decision 0 this application. Notice of the Public Meeting was mailed out on February 24, 1994, to all property owners within 120 metres of the subject lands. Notice of the Public Meeting was also placed in both the Barrie Examiner and Orillia Packet on February 24, 1994. Mayor Robert E. Drury then asked the Clerk if there had been any correspondence received on this matter. The Clerk responded by indicating that one letter had been received from the N.V.C.A. stating they had no objection but request a Preliminary Storm Wate Management Report to resolve concerns for potential impacts of development such as storm water run-off, erosion, sedimentation an the measures whereby these impacts will be mitigated. If detentio - 2 - ponds are required, they be zoned appropriately to reflect the potential hazard. In addition, as there is a proposed developmen for adjacent lands to the south, the proponents investigate the benefits of integrating storm water management for both sites. Mayor Drury: Deputy Reeve Dalziel. Deputy Reeve Dalziel: I am a little confused about the additional lands mentioned in th letter. Mayor Drury: We are trying two public meeting concurrently. Deputy Reeve Dalziel: I see Copeland and Sabiston, so is that something South of these two? Mayor Drury: The Copeland development is North of the Sabiston development. believe this is what you are referring to. I Deputy Reeve Dalziel: I was referring to these two lots. Clerk: I believe it is referring only to the Copeland one. When it refers to the Southern portion, it is referring to the Sabiston development. Deputy Reeve Dalziel: Thank you. Mayor Drury: I am going to read the statement for the second public meeting to deal with Sabiston, Part of Lot 34, Concession 1, formerly Townshi of Oro. We are running these two Public Meetings together as one tonight. Clerk: I believe maybe we have had a change there with the consultant tha would do the presentation. I don't know whether the desire now is to hear them independently? You may wish to check with Mr. Sabiston. James Sabiston: Independently, Bob. Mayor Drury: Independently, ok fine. The Mayor then stated that those persons present would be afforded the opportunity of asking questions with respect to the proposed Amendment. He then turned the meeting over to the Township Planner, Ms. Kris Menzies, to explain the purpose and effect of th proposed Zoning By-Law Amendment. - 3 - Kris Menzies: Thank you Mr. Mayor. The subject property is located on Part Lot 35 and 36, Concession 1 in the former Township of Oro. Mr. Kyle, the consultant for the applicant has put up a plan here. You can see, this is the Wilberforce Road and the Bidwell Road is on the North end of the property. The purpose of tonights Public Meeting is to afford Council the opportunity to hear Public comment regarding the proposal. The proposal is for an Official Plan Amendment from the Rural designation if the former Township of Oro Official Plan to the Estate Residential designation and for a rezoning from the Rural zone to the Estate Residential zone. The purpose of the Official Plan Amendment and the Rezoning Amendment would be to permit a 33 lot estate residential plan of subdivision. I believe Mr. Mayor, Mr. Kyle is here and he may have some additional information for the Public. Mayor Drury: Thank you. Mr. Kyle. Jim Kyle: The proposal in front of us here has already been set out by the Mayor and the Planner, Kris Menzies. What we have is a proposal for 33 estate residential lots. They are large lots. Theyaverag around I believe 1.7 acres in size. The smallest lot would be slightly over an acre and the largest lot would be probably around 3 acres in size. There is some interesting topography on the site and running down through this area and the lots on the steeper portions on the site are quite a bit larger to account for that. The lots fronting ont the concession roads are also larger on the plan. For instance, i this area, this lot is roughly two acres in size and it has adept of 142 metres which would be consistent down through here which is 350 and some odd feet in depth. The proposal is immediately abutting a Draft Approved Estate Residential property to the North. Also, some wooded lines to the West and another Estate Residential development to West. The proposal has an entrance on to Bidwell Side Road and to connecting links down to the Sabiston property to the South which we will tal about after this Public Meeting. The Storm Water Management Plan, a preliminary one has been completed and an additional one will be completed to be submitted to the Conservation Authorities. There is a block on the plan in this location which preliminary reports shows we will probably be putting a storm water detention facility in that location and that is where the site drains to up into that direction. The Township of Oro Estate Residential Policies were modified and the policies permit for 10% of the quota in dwelling units in Oro to be Estate Residential Development. The Township of Oro has completed this update in order to limit the amounts of Estate Residential proposals that are going to be permitted in the Township. Estate Residential is a type of development which is unique. It is a large lot with typically large homes. The 10% ca in the Township which means in future years, if the Township gets 500 building permits throughout the Township, which they don't. I believe the last few years they have had 50 building permits, 80 building permits a year. 500 building permits a year would allow 50 new units to be built in the Town. What the Town is contemplating with that is, that that's approved by the Ministry 0 Municipal Affairs, that policy and they feel that is a very good way to limit the amount of Estate Residential Development that can be approved in the Township. On this proposal and on the Sabiston - 4 - proposal to the south, our intention is we have submitted the pIa so the Sabiston plan that was submitted in 1989, I believe this plan was submitted in 1993, the Copeland plan. We intend on bringing it in front of the Public first of all to get the Public' comments on the plans and then also at the same time, Council is being introduced to the plan and any questions we will answer and we intend then to bring it back to Council with the suggestion th the properties not proceed until we can prove that it conforms to their 10% quota ratio that they have for Estate Residential Development. We will work out a way if there is a capacity currently at this time for this development to get it on to a waiting list so that it will proceed as soon as the capacity is there according to the policies as approved by the Ministry of Municipal Affairs. The area in question where this property is, if the members of th Public here tonight are familiar with the area, if they live with' the circulation distance or if they have heard about this in the newspaper and they know the area they will be aware that addition Estate Residential proposals have been approved in this area. So what we are doing is we are filling out an area with Estate Residential and this proposal and the Sabiston proposal there is ravine running down in this location and the ravine forms the logical South end of Estate Residential Development in that area and these two developments will complete the development of Estat Residential lots in that area. I think there will probably be quite a few questions and it is best to probably put out the questions and I can answer any specific problems that anybody has. Mayor Drury: Thanks Jim, I will call for questions from the audience now and please state you name clearly as this is being tape recorded, com to the mike, it would be appreciated. Questions, comments or concerns? State you name please because it is being recorded. Edward Hall The question from Jarratt-Coulson Association. The comments I ha are kind of general and they will apply to both developments. Would it be appropriate after you make the presentation of the other development to raise questions to both or will this issue be closed at the end of this session? Mayor Drury: No, you can speak to either one if you wish. Edward Hall: Ok, well I will reserve comment until we get the full. Mayor Drury: Ok. Any further questions, comments or concerns? Hartley Woodside: My name is Hartley Woodside and I am a resident of Oro. My comments are of a general nature. I had an opportunity to look at the Growth and Settlement Policy Guidelines that the Province has published of which I am sure you are all aware. I have a lot of difficulty with the process here. I don't really understand what is driving the additional approval or the approval of additional lots in Oro. Apparently we have over 2500 lots perhaps 2900 lots depending on who you listen to, either approved or in the process in Oro and sort of in the planning process or at the approval stage. As we just heard in the presentation these lots will come on stream very slowly as they fit to some 10% rule. There doesn't seem to be a rationale to - 5 - continually approving more development lots when there is no dema or very low demand. Fifty building permits a year I just heard mentioned and there also doesn't seem to be much rationale to the actual planning of these developments. They don't seem to confor to the Official Plan as written. We have a new Township now. I would like to see a new Official Plan that reflects this new Township. I feel like we are proceeding rather pell mel here wit additional lot approvals, additional development approval without giving thought to the impact overall. We are building lots for t next 50 or 100 years instead we are approving lots that will take 50 years perhaps to build on and why is this going on? It seems me to be a very odd way to do it. I think there is lots of time here. There is no pressure, demand pressure saying you got to ge these lots approved because we have an opportunity here to build and provide employment right away and so forth. We have time, we have a completely new Township. We have time here to stop and think about where we want development to occur. These development are not occurring in Craighurst, it is outside of Craighurst considerably, it doesn't seem to fit the old Official Plan. It doesn't seem to be backed by any really solid new planning idea a I would like to quote, briefly and not extensively but the background in the New Growth and Settlement Policy Guideline to short sections which I think apply. "talking of growth, if it is poorly managed, growth can lead to sprawling settlement patterns, service deficiencies and can threaten and/or degrade the quality the environment and the availability and viability of natural resources". I think we are talking about poorly managed growth a this point. Secondly, from the background again, "managing growt through land use planning is assisted by having a vision of what i desirable to the future of the community. If a common vision is established the planning process can direct growth and development to appropriate locations in suitable forms to best achieve this vision. The main land use tool for communicating and implementing a vision at the municipal level is the Official Plan." Well if we have a new Township, I think you need a new vision and I think we need a new Official Plan. I think this is premature, there is no necessity to move ahead with these at this time and that is what I think. Mayor Drury: Thank you for your comments. Brian Pratt Questions, comments or concerns? My name is Brian Pratt, I live in .the South half of Lot 38 of Oro Township. My one questions is, has there been a water study of this whole area to know what water is going to flow? The reason I am asking this questions is, I have some pictures here, I will sho some of the Councillors of the new, or from Medonte. I have a couple pictures here of our lane through to our sugar camp taken i the spring when the snow is melting and there is no water coming there. We were told that this is a water course. But that is onl from an aerial photograph, that wasn't from walking. The Nottawasaga Conservation Authority walked the area and said it wasn't a water course, it is very obvious it is not a water course A water course has to have a bed and banks under the terms or the definition of a water course. Now I have some pictures here of th silt that ran onto our place and the water after the trees were cu on the property next door to us and the silt was running onto our hay field, across our lane, under our hay fields, we couldn't get anything done. We put up a silt fence, it filled up and spilled over. Then they put up a silt fence behind that, the water washed from the second silt fence, washed the silt out of the original silt fence and spilled onto our property. I build a dyke and I have been able to contain what the Township Engineers and the developer Engineers couldn't do. Just a dumb farmer, but I did it Now they have a new silt fence up. I am sure it won't silt up because they diverted the water so it doesn't reach the silt fence It goes around the silt fence, but I don't have a problem with tha - 6 - one, because I have my own dyke there. But this area here where we go into the sugar camp, the water still goes around there and the water has increased dramatically. It use to be that there were trees growing here. Now they are all silted over. I will show yo the pictures here. Mayor Drury: Brian, may I ask you how this is relevant to the proposal before u please? Brian Pratt: Ok, the way it is relevant is like history. If we don't realize what happened before, we are bound to make the same mistakes over and over and over again with every development. Everybody is goin to be like me, we will go through this procedure and everybody tha is adversely effected, it is like inventing the wheel over again. We went through all the hoops. We thought the Township would do something about it. We were ignored, we get sent phone calls, ver sympathetic but nothing was done. Finally we got Nottawasaga Conservation Authority out. They sent letters to the developers and the Township to do something. This situation still exists and you are just compounding it with more development. If you can't look after what you already got, why get more on your plate? That is my whole concern, because you are getting more development and you can't look after what you got. You have not looked after it. You are going to affect more neighbours and until you know, like w are at the bottom of the hill, now we have one development, you pu another one on top of it and another one on top of it. Unless you have an overall plan, you don't know where in the heck you are going. You haven't got a plan. It is so haphazard. You stick something here and stick something here, when it all comes together. The City of Barrie had this problem through a farm. I was talking to a Engineer. They built a development at the bottom put in storm sewers for that area and then somebody at the top of the hill, the water got to the bottom one so all the storm sewers at the bottom at the original one had to be all dug up and enlarge to take the volume of water. I think this is what you have to 100 at. The systems that are in there are inadequate. There is a holding pond beside our place with a hole in the bottom so how can it be a holding pond when it has a hole in the bottom of it. If a pail has a hole in it, it is not going to hold water is it? So it can't be called a holding pond. We are getting water under our place and we went through this time and time again and I don't think other people should have to do this either and the same with these developments. Some of them, I think this one here, there is no farmers close to it but I will speak to the next one later. This is my reason for bringing this up because I think these things should be addressed before you start approving development. Mayor Drury: Thank you, Councillor Martin has a comment and Deputy Reeve Dalzie has a questions. councillor Martin: Mr. Pratt, could you tell me is your land relative to the Sabiston or the Copeland, is it next. Brian Pratt: I am not next to these but I am North of these developments. But they are not adjacent to me. That water, some of it could come down on my property eventually. If it is channelled, it can come down my property way. If you look at a map of Simcoe County, the area where these developments are, it is the driest land in all of simcoe County. There are very few streams. If this silt was coming onto a stream, Natural Resources would be right after them. - 7 - But it is just my livelihood, it is just my farm land that is bein destroyed. So I have no protection, only Council. Natural Resources won't protect me because it is not going into a stream and destroying a spawning bed or something like this. Mayor Drury: Deputy Reeve Dalziel. Deputy Reeve Dalziel: My question has to do with the Township's policy relative to water and silt going from one persons property on to another persons property and in this case, if this gentleman is correct, it is going from the Bravakis property to the North, and you have farm land? Brian Pratt: Yes. Mayor Drury: I am going to have to call time here because we are not even discussing the amendment that is before us this evening. This is separate problem that the Pratt's have and if the Pratts' wish to deal with council on it once again, the doors are wide open and yo can come in and deal with it but the discussion is leading away from the reason we are having a Public Meeting this evening and I am not going to allow the discussion to go that way. Deputy Reeve Dalziel: My question has to do with the Township Policy relative to water and silt going onto other property. Mayor Drury: Ok, is there anyone here that can address that question. We don't have our Engineers here this evening. Kris, do you want to take a stab at it? Kris Menzies: Basically it is a concept that deals with the municipality and it is my recollection that it is not a Township Policy. It is something that the Ministry of the Environment deals with. But when the municipality through the Township Engineers looks at a development, they look at what the pre-development flows are so th flows on to one piece of property off that property onto another property and when the Engineers are looking at the post-developmen flows are, when you pave all the roads, when you put homes in it and so on and so forth, the post development flows are to equal th pre-development flows. The theory being that the net effect will be zero. In relation as to whether there is any Township Policy related to silt, I think that may be more accurately explained by the Township Engineers. Brian Pratt: My question is, has this area been studied, so that you have a map like from the Nottawasaga Conservation Authority, so you know what the water flows are there now? Mayor Drury: Are you talking about a drainage study? - 8 - Brian Pratt: Yes a drainage study of the area. Mayor Drury: That would be, of which area? Brian Pratt: Of this whole area where these developments are going plus the one that are already in progress. Mayor Drury: Well you don't deal with a drainage study until the development ha the go ahead to go ahead. Brian Pratt: Well doesn't other Township's have a study to know what the water flows are. Like Vespra Township, haven't they got a study to know where there water goes? Mayor Drury: I think you were referring to Kris. Kris Menzies: I may be incorrect Mr. Pratt, but I think what you may be talking about is the initiatives that the former Vespra Township took with the Nottawasaga Conservation Authority in regards to mapping their flood and fill lines. Brian Pratt: Yes. Kris Menzies: Yes. The Municipality is considering fees related to getting our fill lines mapped with the NVCA. One of the problems that the former Medonte and former Oro Council has always had is, only approximately one third of Oro is covered by a Conservation Authority and thus we can only get about one third of its maps and correct me if I am wrong gentlemen but approximately an eighth of Medonte was covered by a Conservation Authority. The Council is looking at the possibility of getting this flood and fill line mapped. If I could Mr. Mayor, when you are related to individual developments, the individual developers are required prior to Councilor the Ministry of Municipal Affairs approval of the development, do a storm water management plan or a drainage study on each of the individual developments. In this particular case, Mr. Copeland would be required, if it goes that far, which I think is what the Mayor has explained, to do a drainage study on his particular property, knowing full well there are three draft approved plans to the North, one proposal to the South. So he would take his engineer would take those issues into account when taking a look at it. Mayor Drury: Thank you Kris. Brian Pratt: But this would be in this area though. The Nottawasaga Conservation Authority, all this area, the water does flow into th Nottawasaga eventually. - 9 - Kris Menzies: That is right and if you remember, the letter which the Clerk read out, the NVCA wanted a detailed storm Water Management Plan prior to Council approving the zoning. Prior to Council approving the zoning, Council would have to approve an Official Plan Amendment and the Minister of Municipal Affairs would have to approve that amendment. Assuming that gets done, then Council is in a position to look at the zoning and a requirement of the Conservation Authority would be a detailed storm Water Management Plan by the owner. That is typically not something that is looked at prior to an Official Plan Amendment being considered, an Official Plan Amendment being the concept of development. That tends to be a more detailed designed parameter and that is why the Conservation Authority ask for that to be done basically at the design stage when the zoning takes place, assuming it gets that far. Brian Pratt: I think that is what should be done because then you would not run into these problems. They say water comes onto your property and then you have evidence that it doesn't come onto your property and then you, this is what I am afraid of is the compounding of all of these developments. Mayor Drury: Thank you. Councillor Martin has a question. Councillor Martin: Thank you Mr. Mayor. Kris, the corner, the North West corner is that flowed to Nottawasaga or is that flowed to Copeland. Kris: This would flow to Nottawasaga. Mayor Drury: Further comments, questions or concerns? Don Bidwell: My name is Don Bidwell and I have lived pretty close to this spot for the last 22 years. My concern is allowing for all these subdivisions to come in and what they are doing is just hacking th bush up and making roads and not completing them. I think they should be completing them and the Township is also responsible to the point that they did not complete a road that they promised as continuation of the Bidwell Highway or Bidwell Road through there. They put a sharp bend in there which made the road a hazard. I am on the Fire Department and we were told to be cautious with the fire truck on responses, that the road was never completed by the Township. You know, sod on the shoulders, etc. etc. If the subdivider that Mr. Pratt is talking about, had been told the same thing, you go in there, you start it, you complete it. He probabl would not have silt in his fields right now. It is easy for the rains to come and wash all this silt down into his property. Whether it was the plans or not, I don't know but I think that if you allow a lot of these plans to go through we should find out whether people are just going to start something and get a third 0 the way through or if they are able to finance to do the whole thing, pave the roads, clear the shoulders, sodding etc., is probably necessary to stop the road from washing away. . I - 10 - Mayor Drury: Maybe if I could reply to that, it is kind of a two part question. The Bidwell Road, the intentions were when the development took place that they would pay for the upgrading of that road and have it finished off. The municipality undertook to cut the road through and split the property in two. We owned the property that we split in two. We sold one half of the property, kept the other half of the property and roughed the road in through there so that we could get rid of the dangerous curves for the fire department. That was one of the main reasons for doing that back originally an the intention was all along to have the developers now go through the Development Charges Act like they pay for upgrading that road as the lots are sold off there we will receive around $5,000.00 pe lot and a portion of that, I think 40% goes towards the roads. That is what will finish off the Bidwell Road there. The road has been cut through the bush already. It has been held up in legalities with the one developer in the front trying to get a front end agreement so that the developer in behind which is Bravakis, could in fact build the roads all the way through. They are very anxious to build the roads and as soon as they can get an agreement between the two of the developers, the roads will be finished and they will start selling lots and everything should ge cleaned up and sites seeded with grass to stop erosion. There has to be controls in place when the construction is under way and it may seem that the control that is in place to the Pratts' is insufficient, but we may have to go back and do some more, but those controls are suppose to be in place when the development is taking place. The roads are being cut out and as we all know, everything is loose and the sand does run and cause a problem. Don Bidwell: They made a place for the four by fours and trail bikes to play which is causing a lot more rip in the road. Mayor Drury: I would advise you that the developer Bravakis did cut those trees out and was found guilty under the County Tree Cutting By-law and was fined $2,000.00 for cutting those trees and those trees should not have been cut until after Draft Plan Approval was received. A that stage the County will allow them to go ahead and cut the tree because of the concerns you are saying. If they don't have all th approvals in place and we don't have a Letter of Credit, the municipality, once Draft Plan Approval is received and the subdivision agreement is signed, we have Letters of Credit so that we can come in and build the roads. Don Bidwell: Is there anything, like the additional effects of the lots to the water tables or water supply? Mayor Drury: Jim, I will let you respond to that. Jim Kyle: Yes, Terraprobe has been retained. They are the hydrogeologists 0 both of the two properties. There is excessive work done in the area on water by other developers. Testing of the water in this area and Terraprobe has concluded that there won't be any impact on, there won't be any draw down on the water at the aquifer. - 11 - Don Bidwell: Right. Good to see that. Well I'm 265' but I think you have to put something in around 300'. Mayor Drury: Thanks Don is there any further comments, questions or concerns from the P~blic? Alright, I'll ask council Members if they have any comments, questions or concerns? Deputy Reeve Dalziel. Deputy Reeve Dalziel: Mr. Mayor the other night we had a Mr. Clark here talking on beha of Horseshoe Development Limited and I believe Kris, he mentioned withdrawing 443 lots in a certain section up in the Highlands and believe then if the 10% factor operates going up, it also operate going down. So have we lost 43 lots? Kris: No, the 10% factor is based on built units. The withdrawal that Mr. Clark was talking about was withdrawal of a Draft Plan of Subdivision from the Minister. Being that those were proposed 10 as opposed to physically built units, it would have no net effect on the Estate Residential 10% quota. Deputy Reeve Dalziel: The definition of a physically built unit, is that a house? Kris: It is a building permit being issued. We have a little bit of a tracking problem in that the building must be built within a year and I don't go out and make sure that they built it the day the building permit was being issued. Deputy Reeve Dalziel: Ok, thank you. I have a question then relevant to this road and' Copeland goes ahead and the one South of it doesn't go ahead how earth are we going to take care of those two roads? Kris: The concepts which you see before you this evening, you see this one and you will see another one later this evening are conceptual plans. The Township in its development guidelines requires that a developer upon consideration of a Official Plan Amendment must co in and show Council and subsequently the Public a concept. It is not a secured definite design. If the concept of the development is acceptable to the Minister and Council an Official Plan Amendment will be approved. This may be approved as a scenario, this one may not be. If that turns out to be the case, obviously the developer when he comes in for his Draft Plan Approval will design the subdivision appropriately. Mayor Drury: Questions from Council? Councillor Dickie Councillor Dickie: I would like to ask Kris to clarify the 10% policy. Once the subdivision is approved, all the houses or all the lots can be built upon, can they not? It doesn't depend on the number of houses built in any particular year? - 12 - Kris: The quota depends on the total amount of homes built. How we have defined it because of administration purposes is the total amount of building permits issued. So we could have, lets use an outrageous scenario, 5,000 lots approved this year. That doesn't mean we have 500 that can be Estate Residential. However, if we had 5,000 building permits issued this year, that means that our Estate quota can go up 500. It is not contingent upon development approvals. It is contingent on built units. Councillor Dickie: Once the subdivision is approved it can be filled up in two years can it not? It does not have to wait for building permits on that 10% rule does it? Kris: How I have interpreted it is, to determine if there is quota for 3 lots which is proposed on this subdivision, as an example, we woul have to have 330 built units available which is not absorbed in another subdivision. So to determine if these lots can be approve by Council, we have to have the reciprocal built units existing in the municipality. Councillor Dickie: Correct. But I am saying, once the subdivision is approved, it can go ahead in a year and fill up all the lots on that subdivision ca it not? Kris: Sure. Certainly. Mayor Drury: Councillor Crawford. Councillor Crawford: Would you get Kris to explain what the other 90% is, what the zoning is on the other 90%. I don't think you are clear on 10% of what. Kris: The 10% quota system which the former Oro Council instituted and the Minister of Municipal Affairs approved in November of 1992 was 10% of the existing housing stock of the municipality. So to use scenario, if there are 1000 homes existing in Oro Township, the municipality is then in a position to approve a maximum of 100 Estate Residential lots. Thus, the 10% is 10% of the existing housing stock can be developed as Estate Residential. How you get the 10% is based on a 100% of every zone. Some could be Shoreline Residential, some could be General Residential, some could be Estate Residential. So you look at all the zones in the municipality, count up all the homes, find out what the 10% is and then you can approve up to that amount as Estate Residential development. Member of Public: You mean 100 a year? - 13 - Kris: If we issue 1000 building permits this year that means this year Council can approve 100 Estate Residential lots. Member of Public: You only count the 1000 base once? Kris: That is correct. If we have today, 10,000 homes in Oro, council i in a position to have 1000 Estate Residential lots. If we have 50 built, they can approve 500 more. Mayor Drury: Thank you Kris. Any further questions, comments or concerns? Deputy Mayor Beard. Deputy Mayor Beard: Kris, I understand there is 200 lots all together in this and the other one is surrounded by existing ones in the area. Kris: That sounds reasonable. Approximately, yes. Deputy Mayor Beard: Now, has there ever been a study of the cumulative effect of 200 houses overall on that area on the water, on the land, on the traffic etc? Kris: No there has not. There has been individual studies, some of whic have to take into account what is already there. As an example, when they are looking at the drainage for this particular development, if it gets that far, they will have to look at what drainage the other subdivisions are producing simply because they are existing approved developments. So that will be their base level. Mayor Drury: Thank you. name. The gentleman at the back, would you please state your Rocke Robertson: My name is Rocke Robertson and I am just trying to get clear exactly what studies have been done. Terraprobe was mentioned as having done a water level study. Is that only for the two areas under consideration tonight or is that for all of the developments in this area? Kris: All of the developments in this area are one Registered Plan of Subdivision which is referred to as Woodland Heights. Three draft approved plans of subdivision, which means that they have a couple of issues which they need to deal with Council in regards to details to a subdivision agreement before they get registered, plu two proposals. The Registered Plan of Subdivision happened quite some time ago and I can only assume that there was detailed studie done at the time, otherwise, Council and the Minister would not have approved the development. The three draft approved plans eac have their own hydrogeological report done. Each have their own - 14 - planning analysis done, each had their own drainage study done as well as individual studies in relation to water tables, road patters, planning analysis, design, so on and so forth. In this particular development, there has been a preliminary hydrogeological analysis done, there has been a preliminary planning analysis done and a lot of the detailed engineering desig studies will be completed at the time if and when Official Plan Approval is given. As an example, to determine the exact road pattern that should be most suitable to this site, is not normally an issue which Council and the Province deals with now because the question before them tonight is, should the concept of some kind 0 residential development go forth. If the answer is yes, they approve it. The Minister of Municipal Affairs approves it, then the developer through his draft plan process will be asked to produce those very detailed studies. Rocke Robertson: Well what you said, I think reinforces Reeve Beard's questions. You said that each of these areas that have had draft plan approva had their own hydrogeological study and their own storm water run off study etc. etc. Has anybody undertaken a look at this whole area as a unit, rather than as individual pieces? In other words has there been an assessment of the cumulative impact of all of this development on the entire area? Kris: No there has not been. But inherent in a lot of these studies takes those concepts into consideration. As an example, when you are doing a hydrogeological analysis to determine under the Ministry of Environment and Energies guidelines and requirements, you have to ensure that your water at your property boundary meets ontario's drinking water standards. The next guy that comes along has got to take those base parameters and start with his piece of property and do the study allover again. So a lot of those issue have them inherent in each individual study. But in regards to ha the municipality commissioned an overall study to do overall requirements, no. There has been a Township wide hydrogeological analysis which was, the document was accepted by Council approximately two years ago, which looked at Township wide hydrogeological issues and these hydrogeological studies which wer completed at that time were considered by the Township's hydrogeological engineer and there was no concern found on his part. Mayor Drury: Does that answer your question? Rocke Robertson: Partially yes. later. I have other questions here I will leave them unti Hartley woodside: Kris, I wonder if you could explain to me the Planning rationale coming out of our existing Official Plan for this development and how it conforms to the current Official Plan or whether it conform and if it doesn't, in what way doesn't it? Kris: The Minister of Municipal Affairs adopted in November of 1992 the Official Plan Amendment #48 which is the former Township of Oro Estate Residential policies. The particular properties as Mr. Kyl has explained and we have talked about a little bit, are premised on certain aspects which are inherent in a lot of Estate Residential policies. The municipality wants to see their Estate - 15 - Residential development to be large lot development. They want see it in an area of scenic beauty and topography. It is usually frowned upon in regards to redesignating flat agricultural land a an example. As well, Oro has put a quota system which is not inherent in a lot of Estate Residential plans, and this is the 10 capacity we have been dealing with. We have looked at some of th numbers in relation to the Estate Residential policies. Notall the numbers and I am sure you can appreciate that it is always evolving. Every time we issue a building permit, bang, I h~ve,go one tenth of that building permit can be looked at by Councl1 ln relation to an Estate Residential development. Typically a hard pure planning analysis of what goes on doesn't happen until we ha this public meeting, so I didn't sit down this morning and do a count and do a grave analysis as to whether it conforms or not. Hartley Woodside: My question wasn't really concerning the Estate Residential designation so much as having a subdivision here at all and on wh basis from the current Official Plan would be acceptable to put another subdivision in this area. Presumably, one goes about the things in some sort of fashion. This is how the Council envisage this area and presumably this is reflected somewhere in the Official Plan and so I am really asking you, where in the Officia Plan, out of what part of the existing Official Plan does this subdivision come in? And if it doesn't come from the current Official Plan, I would like you to comment. Mayor Drury: Kris, I wonder if maybe we can have Jim respond to that question? It would be more appropriate. Jim Kyle: The current Official Plan of the Township of Oro permits Estate Residential development subject to certain criteria. For any Estate Residential proposal, the lands are not predesignated in a Township, typically and Oro follows that guideline. The policies permit Estate Residential development by amendment to the Official Plan. In order to get an amendment to the Official Plan, the property has to conform to certain policies. Kris mentioned some of these policies to you, the lands can't be classed 1, 2, 3 or 4 agricultural land. Lands have to be rolling, have to be scenic, have to be treed. The lots have to access an internal subdivision road. There is numerous policies under Estate Residential outline in the Official Plan. This particular development, the Copeland property, conforms to all the policies within the Official Plan in order to get an amendment for an Estate Residential development. Perhaps while we are on the topic of conformity to the Official Plan, the Town has approved of Official Plan Amendment #48 which i to do with the Estate Residential policies. At that time, you could get Country Residential lots in the Township. Country Residential lots were smaller than Estate lots, they were also usually on the same type of property and with OPA #48, the Townshi threw out that allowance, now you can't get Country Residential. You can only get Estate Residential and there is quite more onerou requirements in order to get an approval for Estate Residential than there was for Country Residential development. The Town in order to approve Official Plan Amendment #48 retained Ainley & Associates to do a complete planning study of all applications in the Township of Estate Residential proposals. At the time, this one wasn't submitted, the Sabiston proposal was submitted. Ainley & Associates looked at all planning issues and determined that this area with the other ones that were approved were suitable for Estate Residential. Ainley & Associates said that the ravine which flows down here, formed a logical South end of Estate Residential developments in this area. Ainley & Associates also mentioned that, I am sorry I have to jump to the - 16 - Sabiston one, but the Sabiston property was to the South of the ravine and therefore didn't fit into this area of Estate Residential development. Unfortunately, Ainley & Associates made mistake. The ravine is to the South of the Sabiston property and that has been verified by surveys and ontario Base Mapping. The ravine forming the South end of the Estate Residential developmen in this area was supported by Ainley & Associates, therefore, the two developments in the Township's overall OPA #48 were supported. The Ministry of Municipal Affairs appro~e~ ~nly ~he o~es that. Ainleys had mentioned, three other subdlvls~ons,ln thlS ar7a, thl one was not submitted until later and at thls tlme the Sablston property and this property conform to the Township's Official PIa and to Official Plan Amendment #48. You also mentioned that perhaps you had some problems with the conformity to Growth and Settlement Policies. The Township's Amendment #48 was approved after Growth and Settlement Policies a the Ministry of Municipal Affairs who wrote Growth and Settlement approved these developments that they conformed to Growth and Settlement Policies. Hartley Woodside: They approved these developments already? Jim Kyle: Not these developments. They approved the Estate Residential policies in Oro as conforming to the Growth and Settlement Policies. So in other words, they allowed a 10% quota of Estate Residential development without saying that they have to be adjacent to another Estate Residential. This could be in the middle of the Township and as long as it conformed to all the Estate Residential policies, and as long and it fit within the 10% quota, it would be supported as conforming to Growth and Settlemen as according to the Ministry of Municipal Affairs. Hartley Woodside: Well that is interesting and actually that is informative. I have been to understand the particular applications for Estate Residential as opposed to other residential. I don't however, withdraw my concerns with regard to Growth and Settlement guidelines. I do think that my early comments with respect to overall planning for the Township are clearly stated in the Growth and Settlement guidelines and I think are being neglected in even considering additional lot approval at this time even if it does conform with Estate Residential that you argued. So I stand bette informed with respect to the particular Estate Residential. However, I don't withdraw my concerns with respect to the overall conformity with the Growth and Settlement guidelines and nor do I withdraw my concerns with respect to the need for a revised Official Plan given the new nature of the Township. Jim Kyle: With Growth and Settlement, I am basing my knowledge on the expert who wrote the policy who have determined that this conforms to the Growth and Settlement Policies. I am stating this for Council's sake. As far as proper planning when we first looked at this area Mr. Sabiston retained us first who had the property to the South. We reviewed Ainley's planning report which said our property was to the South of the ravine and therefore did not fit in with this area. We went out there and confirmed that no that was incorrect and we met with, not the Township of Medonte, now Oro-Medonte, but we met with the Township of Oro Council at the time and brought up that concern. That is one of the reasons we were granted a Public Meeting was that there was an original mistake in thinking the Sabiston property was on the other side of the ravine. So when yo - 17 - have the Sabiston property here which was the end of these developments and to North of us was the Copeland property. It was more or less the whole in the donut, the rest of the area was developed for Estate Residential and we approached Mr. Copeland an informed him that through proper planning that development on his site would fill out this area. The Township had done a planning study of this area and did determine through Ainley & Associates that this was the logical place for development for Estate Residential development. These developments now, the two of them, complete this area and they are not scattered developments. We feel that the 10% quota which does allow scattered development we feel that these two developments are better suited and better conforming to Provincial policies and grouping of developments and the entire area can be properly planned. As far as looking at the impacts, our preliminary soil reports says that we can put approximately 55 lots on this property, we have 33 based on nitrat evaluations. We have to ensure that we look at the other developments in the area and that we don't have a cumulative impact, that burden is on us to prove that. Mayor Drury: Thank you, before these two Council members, Mr. Hall. Edward Hall: I had one brief question. There is a rule in the former Oro's Official Plan that says local residential development should occur adjacent to existing hamlets. Does this OPA #48 set up that? Estate Residential does it by-pass the rule some how? Jim Kyle: It hasn't bypassed that rule. That rule does not apply to Estate Residential development. As I mentioned before, Estate Residentia is a unique type of development that doesn't, it is not urban development. It is not adjacent to hamlets and as a matter of fact.. Edward Hall: Are you quoting OPA #48 now or? Jim Kyle: As a matter of fact, in most municipalities they do not allow Estate Residential development adjacent to existing hamlets or built up areas. It has to be separated. Edward Hall: (inaudible) told me the definition the definition of Estate Residential. Jim Kyle: I would have to pull it out of the Official Plan, Mayor Drury: Do you have copies? Kris: I have copies of OPA #48 if Mr. Hall wants to. Edward Hall: I am curious about the definition of Estate Residential, what is Estate Residential? Does it relate to lot size? - 18 - Kris: Estate Residential development has to suit the policies in the plan. The policies in the plan as Mr. Kyle has discussed, state that the lots have to be in a rolling scenic area. They are typically larger homes, they are typically found outside a hamlet or village area, they are non-existent in urban policies to my experience. To ask if there is a definiti~n in the Offic~a~ Plan for Estate Residential development, there lsn't one. Offlclal Plans don't host definition, zoning by-laws do. So to ask what i an Estate Residential, what does it mean? It means that the lots must follow the policies in the Plan. You will typically hear a lot of people say, Estate Residential is country development of a large lot nature. Generally that is correct but it is a little b t more integrated than that when you are looking at the policies of someones Official Plan. Rocke Robertson: I would just like to ask, and I don't know who I should direct th to. What happens if we have a problem? I asked about cumulative impact study on water levels previously. My concerns are, I live just one lot North of Brian Pratt, my concern is partially relate to the silt. Although, I suspect Brian, I hope Brian has solved that before it effects me. Also, it relates to the water levels because of the well and like Don Bidwell, I have a well which is dug, although I have only been there six years, the well has been producing water for a herd of cattle and a house full of people f 25 or more years. What is my remedy if something happens to that and wells start being drilled in these proposed subdivisions? Do have to do something ahead of time to prove that I have so much water there? Are there things I have to go through now to protec myself if something happens later? I have been unable to really determine what situation is there. Mayor Drury: Jim, would you like to respond to that please? Jim Kyle: We are obligated to prepare a detailed hydrogeological report on the property which determines where the water aquifers are and wh the capacity of water aquifers are and what the draw down of our development will be. The Ministry of Environment has new policie out, depending on when the application was submitted, it mayor m not apply to require that the developer drills one test well for every 5 hectares of land. So the developer, for instance, on this case has 27 hectares so he would have drill approximately 5 test wells on the property and each test well would be pumped and ever other well in the area would be monitored while these test wells were being pumped to show the draw down of the other wells in the area. If the draw down is significant, and it can't be proven tha we can take water from here without impacting the neighbouring wells, then the Ministry of Environment will not permit the development to proceed. Now, I think you are probably going to say, well that is fine and dandy, but what happens if these houses are all built and my wells are drawn down? At that time, and that is something that perhaps, Mayor Drury could answer. Rocke Robertson: I am sorry you said how many test wells? Jim Kyle: I believe 5 test wells are required. hectares. One test well per every 5 - 19 - Rocke Robertson: For every 5 hectares. Ok well, part of the problem is when I came to the Public Meeting regarding the Bravakis subdivision, I spoke to the gentleman who done the hydrogeological study for that and h told me that because my well was a shallow well, it was not even considered a well and therefore, I was basically out in the cold i something happened. Because it is not a registered well with the I presume the Simcoe County District Health unit. Jim Kyle: I think, I can't speak for the gentleman who was speaking to you, but you are probably in a completely different aquifer than what the wells were in the subdivision and he probably had problems seeing any connection between your well and these wells. Your wel is still a legitimate well and you are using it for, you said cattle? Rocke Robertson: We are half a lot away, we must be in the same aquifer. Jim Kyle: No. Aquifers go according to depth, usually there is, I can't spea specifically for the gentleman but typically there is an upper aquifer, a middle aquifer and a lower aquifer and usually, dug wells are into the upper aquifer and drilled wells are into a completely different aquifer which is going through layers of clay and bedrock and what have you before it gets down into that aquifer. A dug well on the other hand really fluctuates according to yearly fluctuations. If we have a wet year, your well is likel to be good. If we have. Rocke Robertson: We monitor that well and 1988 was one of the driest years we have had and the well was half full and is still half full. Jim Kyle: So your well doesn't fluctuate which is very good. If this development pumps the 33 lots and your well, then we would monitor your well while we are doing our pump test if it is within, there is a distance that the hydrogeological guys have and it is accepte by the Ministry of Environment that if you are pumping a typical well for a house which is in a high draw down, you go so far and look at the impact and so far and if you, you can't do the whole Township is what I am trying to say and if they determine, (inaudible) Jim Kyle: I am not sure, I would have get the hydrogeologist to tell you tha answer but if you are within that area which is further than it ha to be more or less just to double ensure that there is no problems and if your well is within that area, they will monitor your well and hopefully they will have some background on your well as to ho good your well was before that and get that from you and they will test the water in your well to see whether it is fresh and whether there is any problems from nitrates or any other contaminants in your well and then when these homes are built and they are drawing down the water and if your well goes dry, you have a recourse that you can take to, if you can prove that it was this development impact negatively, impacted your well and dried up your well, ther is recourse you can take, you can take legal recourse that you can take. - 20 - Rocke Robertson: Do I understand from you then that it is the responsibility of th developer to approach me and test my well? Jim Kyle: If you are within the zone of influence, the developer will approach you and test your well. Now in saying that, they don't necessarily test every well within that area. They have a formul and they use that to determine it. If you have a neighbour immediately beside you in a residential subdivision, there is a g 20 meters from you and he has the same dug well, they make assumptions that his well is going to be impacted the same way yours is going to be impacted. They can either discount your wel or they can test both, it is up to them and if you have a concern and I don't know your distance, but if you are within a certain area, you can get in touch with me and I can guarantee that you know our hydrogeologist will test your well at that time. It is best for us to test as many as possible so that we don't have people that have bad wells coming to us after we develop saying y ruined our well sort of thing. Rocke Robertson: Then the other question of course, again relates to cumulative impact, because if you are doing draw down on test wells in this subdivision and then in a different period of time, the other subdivision do theirs, well clearly that is not going to reflect the situation that you have when all of those lots have houses on them and they are all drawing water. Jim Kyle: I guess the good thing is that since we are last in getting this back from my client, he has to look at the draw down of all the other wells done by the, each other property had a hydrogeologist who did a report and we will have to look at those and say there i this much draw down from these proposed 125 homes of whatever. No we are going to have another 33 and another 48, the total draw dow will be x and it will either impact neighbouring wells or it won't impact neighbouring wells. The other thing is there is mass balance formulas, this is a very, as one gentleman said, there is not much water in this area, surface water, except for silt flowin onto his property. This area infiltrates very good and these larg lots, 2 acre lots, 1 ~ acre lots, the impervious surfaces on the lots is going to be minimal, the house and the driveway. The majority of the lot is going to be left in a natural state. That area is going to infiltrate and add to the water cycle and usually with Estate Residential developments on sandy soils, as a general rule of thumb, the amount of water that you would draw to service these, equals or is less than the water that infiltrates back into the ground to replenish the aquifers. Mayor Drury: Councillor Martin. Councillor Martin Thank you Mr. Mayor. Through the Mayor to Kris and to Jim, is there certain magical number or a certain number there where a communal water system takes priority over individual wells and lik wise the same with sewer systems? Is there a Government feasibility policy also that may come to a point with these numbers? - 21 - Jim Kyle: I can answer that question. Currently the Ministry of the Environment who is the agency that regulates that, does require t proponents to look at alternate servicing methods for development. Feasibility reports when this subdivision was submitted that was not the case, and whether or not was submitted to MOE before or after a certain magical date, determines what policy they are goi to implement on these developments. Servicing in the area is on individual septic and individual wells. When we come in, it is doubtful that they are going to require these other developments go communal or, because they are already Draft Plan Approved and they are on their merry ways. The Ministry of Environment will look at our property and determine whether they feel communal servicing is feasible, communal wells, communal septic. We will have to obey their rules and regulations and our initial design i that the sites are well suited for individual wells and individua septic. That is what we are pushing, that is what we want. The Ministry of Environment may not go along with that and we may hav to look at other options but this is what we want on the development and we can prove through our hydrogeologist in that communal impacts, cumulative impacts, won't add up to create a problem and that this is suitable to go on this method. We will probably have to prepare studies to MOE to prove that and if MOE doesn't accept that study, they can force us into communal servicing. That is an option we would like to stay away from. Problems right now with the Ministry of Environment, although the say they want communal services such as sewage control systems, most municipalities don't want to assume these types of systems, they don't have the money or staff to look after them. The Ministry of Environment itself, is sort of in a new era. They don't really have the technical ability to know which systems yet they really want to see. There is numerous test papers going on throughout Ontario at different sites, the SBR system for a school and what have you in Guthrie and they really haven't come to the point where they have given us confidence that if we came in with this type of system that they would approve it without any questions. So we go with this method. If times change and they come out with a great sewage treatment facility for these types of developments, we would be more than happy to put them on but if things stay the way they are, this has been proven that the Government is backing off. We see through the Growth and Settlement updates of it, they are backing off on requiring these types of system through the newest Growth and Settlement policies and we feel we have been in the Estate Residential business for numerous years, we have numerous built Estate Residential proposal and we are also working in a community of Sharon in York Region which is all on septic. They recently did a study in Sharon, they are ~ acre lot community and their existing home, according to MOE policy sewage should have been overloaded, should hav7 been ~o milligrams per litre of nitrate in the wells. TheY,d~d studles of actual nitrates and they were less than 1 and the Mlnlstry of Environment has given approval for more development in Sharon on individual septic systems recently. It is quite a ground breaking case and they are proceeding. So history is shown in,this situation which is sandy soil and not near as good solI that we have got, we have got quite a bit heavier actually, ~istory has shown that they denitrified the effluent in the septlc systems and they are not as bad as everybody thought they were. Councillor Martin: Supplementary. How far on the average, down is the hard pan, the clay and hard pan on average? Jim Kyle: I am not sure whether Terraprobe, again the technical aspects is that we want to get the public opinion, we want to get council's opinion and the detailed technical work, the subdivision design an , I - 22 - everything, will have to be proven before we proceed. I will just check quickly to see if I see the... I have a water well record, am just trying to find one close, this one is not too far here, Mayor Drury: Perhaps what we could do gentlemen is, we will move along with the rest of this meeting and we will break and then before we are goin to have our Regular Council Meeting, you might be able to find it by that time. Jim Kyle: It looks like I am finding quite a bit of clay 20 metres to 120 metres in the one instance in then the well is drilled at 132 metres in this is quite there check in layers and down the one well and one instance. There a few records here and they all seem to vary quite a bit, so is no, until we put the wells down on this site or until we the wells exactly (inaudible) Mayor Drury: Deputy Reeve Dalziel, you had your hand up there about ~ an hour ago. I don't want you to think we neglected you. Deputy Reeve Dalziel: Mr. Mayor, you know at my age, by now I would have forgotten what wanted to ask. Mayor Drury: Any further comments? Hartley. Hartley Woodside: I would like to respond to Rocke's question. He was asking about what he should do to ensure that his well is tested during the dra down of the test wells. I think it is a legitimate question. I live in a small community that had two subdivisions with test well drilled around it and during that process we, our wells were all the closest wells to the subdivision and no monitoring was done whatsoever during that process of our wells. I think it is a legitimate concern and one that has not really been addressed as t how do you ensure that the appropriate well is monitored. My second point was more about the cumulative impact which I think is also one that is not being addressed. Mayor Drury: Reeve Caldwell. Reeve Caldwell: Mr. Mayor I would suggest that if anybody wants their well monitored, that they leave their name with the Council now so that we can keep it on file so when the developer does go ahead to do their actual testing that there is a list of people and where they are with phone numbers so they can be contacted. I think in some parts they go out and they bang on a few doors and if somebody is not home, oh well, carryon and then they go and do their well testing. If they had the numbers and names ahead of time, perhaps this would be a little better. If you have a valid concern. Rocke Robertson: Can I consider my name left with Council then. - - 23 - Mayor Drury: The Clerk will look after that, yes. Deputy Reeve Dalziel. 'Deputy Reeve Dalziel: Mr. Mayor I think that the gentleman that just spoke should put i in writing and that is the safest way to have it looked after. I am not saying that the Clerk won't remember and it won't be recorded. It should be the homeowners right to have a written request. Mayor Drury: Perhaps having heard from some of the requests for having wells tested, if in fact it did move to the next stage where the sign w posted on the property, maybe it is something that we could consider and have that written into the sign as well, that anyone who wished to have their wells tested within a certain area, they make sure they leave their name and address and bring it to the Township office so that we wouldn't miss anyone in that case. The requirements and some of them may be too far out of the way but I am sure the developer would be willing to go along and check when the tests are being done. Further questions, comments or concern with this proposal before us? There being no further questions or comments, when being called fo the third time, the Mayor in closing the meeting, thanked those i attendance for their participation and advised that Council would consider all matters before reaching a decision. He then advised those present that if they wished to be notified of the passing of the proposed By-law, they should leave their name and address with the Clerk. MOTION NO.1 Moved by Caldwell, seconded by Martin Be it resolved that this Special Public Meeting of Council (Part 0 Lots 35 and 36, Concession 1 E.P.R. formerly Oro) now be adjourned @ 8:21 p.m. Carried. RO