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02 16 1994 Sp Public2 Minutes , ' 'tD CORPORA~XON 01' 'tD ~1INSJIXP 01' ORO-lIBÐONTB SPBCDL PUBLXC KBftXNG 'WBÐNB8IaY PDIUJUY 1', 199t .. 'ut' P.M. - COUNCXL CJD1IBDS PXPm KBftXNG 199t COUNCXL council met this evening present: @ 7:46 p.m. with the following members Mayor Robert E. Drury Deputy Mayor Ian Beard Reeve David Caldwell Deputy Reeve Norman Dalziel Councillor Donald Bell Councillor Alastair Crawford Councillor Joanne Crokam Councillor walter Dickie Councillor Murray Martin Councillor Leonard Mortson staff Present: Kris Menzies, Planner, Mr. Gary Cunnington, Administrator and Andria Darby. Also Present Was: Mr. and Mrs. Van Andel, Robert Campbell, carolyn Campbell, Evelyn Guthrie, Debra McMaster, William McMaster, Sharon Howse, shirley Woodrow, Edward M. Hall, John Hare, Allan Baker, cynthia Panagapka, Ted Gadawski and Jean Campbell Mayor Robert E. Drury assumed the chair and opened the meeting. Mayor Robert E. Drury opened the meeting by explaining to those present that this Public Meeting was to receive public comments with respect to a proposed zoning By-law Amendment, pursuant to provisions of the Planning Act, 1983, section 34 (12). The applicant has applied to rezone certain lands described as Part Lot 9, Concession 14, formerly Medonte. To date, the Council of the corporation of the Township of Oro- Medonte have not made decision on this application other than proceeding to a Public Meeting. Only after comments are received from the Public, Township Staff and requested Agencies within an appropriate time period, will Council make a decision on this application. Notice of the Public Meeting was mailed out on January 27,1994, to all property owners within 120 metres of the subject lands. Notice of the Public Meeting was also placed in both the Barrie Examiner and Orillia Packet and Times on January 27, 1994. Mayor Drury then asked the Deputy Clerk if there has been any correspondence received on this matter. The Deputy Clerk responded by indicating that correspondence had been received from J. R. Liss and M. T. Liss who have concerns with the loss of agricultural land, the potential for an abandoned building and traffic. The Mayor then stated that those persons present would be afforded the opportunity of asking questions in respect to the proposed zoning By-Law Amendments. The Mayor then turned the meeting over to Ms. Kris Menzies, Townsblp Planner, to explain the purpose and e£fec~ of ~he proposed amendment. I' - 2 - Kris Menzies As the Mayor has stated, the property is located on Part Lot 9, Concession 14 in the former Township of Medonte. The property fronts on to Highway 12 in the former Medonte Township and basically across the street there is the Mount st. Louis Road. The application is for a si te specific rezoning to a rural exception zone. The property is designated rural district in the Medonte O.P. and is currently zoned rural. The applicant is requesting a portion of his land holding to be zoned in this category approximately four acres, to permit the operation of a bake shop, convenience store, delicatessen, restaurant and two second floor apartments with a maximum of two bedrooms a piece. Mr. Mayor, Mr. Van Andel is the owner of the property and he is in the audience and he may be able to answer any specific questions the public has about the business itself. Thank you Mr. Mayor. Mayor Drury Any questions, comments or concerns with the proposed amendment before us this evening from the public? For the second time, any questions, comments or concerns? Greq Van Andel Your Honour, I would like to answer that letter if I may. Mayor Drury Sure. Come forward please and state your name. Greq Van Andel Your Honour and members of council, My name is Greg Van Andel and my wife and I own the property in question. The letter was so long that I cannot remember all the points but some of the points I wish to make first of all, this is not agricultural land, it is an old gravel pit that has been backfilled with concrete and other debris from the Department of Highway over the years and would still have to be backfilled in order to bring it up to the specifics necessary to build my proposed business. Second of all, while my friend down the side road is concerned about the success of this business, I would like to tell Council members that I have been in the baking business for going on pretty near forty years. I have managed a baking business that does over 25 million dollars business a year. I think I am well schooled in the art of baking. I hold a degree in baking from the Kansas State University. I do recognize that a bakery in this location would have a struggle and an effort to survive with the neighbours in that area. I have operated business, a bakery business on this property for the last approximately five years and I have even survived through the bad times. My predominant business has been and probably will always be in the wholesale business. I transport baked goods as far north as ten - 3 - miles below Parry Sound. I think the opportunity is out there for businesses to grow and to expand. I have no doubt whatsoever that this could not be a successful business after all, sir, gentlemen, and men. At my age I will not risk my whole life earnings on some foolish adventure. Concerning the intersection at Mount st. Louis Side Road, I have dealt with the Department of Highways several times over the last four or five years. I have been working on this proposal and I say we, because the good old Medonte Council and their predecessors and I have been working together to see what we could best do to develop this property for me to succeed at best in business and supply employee opportunities for people in the area. Just to give you a little bit of background on that, the hold up was the amount of capital I would have to invest to even get Council to listen to me. However, since we all investigated these things and I learned a lot because I started this with no knowledge at all. You ask me to bake a loaf of bread, I can tell you, but to do this I didn't. The size and the operation of this business was determined by the Department of Health and it has to be kept below 4500 litres of water per day as far as business can go. Therefore, I cannot make any bigger than requested unless I go into such things as environmental studies, water shed studies and hydrology studies and on and on and on where it becomes a big development type project. It is simply a small business man using his assets to make a small business for himself and his family with limitations and it has been governed by the Department of Health. I met the Department of Health on several occasions and they came up with the size that I could use. Regarding the intersection itself, as I mentioned, the Department of Highways specified what I would be required to do in order to get their approval for this commercial environment which was number one, pave the shoulder of the road, there is not enough traffic on this highway, according to them, to warrant a turning lane. It does not warrant that, your business is not big enough to warrant a turning lane. You would have to pave the shoulder of the road entrance to it. The second thing is there is now an entrance on to that piece of property from Number 12 Highway which is approximately fifty feet South of Mount st. Louis Side Road. It would have to be in direct line, moved into direct line with Mount st. Louis Side Road and the Department of Highway gave me a By- law Number that would have to be built up to their specifications. So all these matters have been brought up by this Mayor Drury Deputy Reeve Dalziel Mayor Drury councillor Martin Greq Van Andel - 4 - gentleman has been thoroughly investigated by myself and I really believe that they have been thoroughly investigated by the previous Medonte Council, because we have talked about this and I am just asking our new Township to follow through with the program that we have been working on for the last three years and rezone so that we may build the business. As I say right now we have been operating our own bakery business on this same location operated attached to our house. We are under, I got permission from Council to expand the size of the building and to hire more employees than was under the by-law, what is that called? Minor Variance. I have that so I can operate where I presently am but I can't go any farther. Thank you gentlemen. Ok, just have a seat here, there may be some questions. I would like to add to what Mr. Van Andel has stated and I will start with Mr. Liss's letter. The land in question is very, very gravelly and I can assure anyone here in this room that you would not want to even grow weeds on it. The potential success, I watched this gentleman strive from a home occupation until it started growing like topsy. He is a man who is extremely energetic and puts time and effort into it and he does actually travel very far and wide to sell the baked goods that he makes. The traffic situation has been considered by the past Council and by MOT and as Mr. Van Andel has stated there will be a turn in lane paved on the shoulder and Council of Medonte had some concern that there should also be a exit type of lane on the shoulder so the traffic aspect has been well looked at and he is correct when he said MOT would not warrant a left turn lane. One of the interests that the previous Council had in this particular business was the opportunity to provide jobs for a few people. Other questions or comments? Councillor Martin. I live approximately one kilometre from Mr. Van Andel and I have bought from him, (inaudible) a few years ago in a newspaper, I know his background, he had the licence and he is just a tremendous baker. To the farms, and (inaudible) it is pure gravel pit. How many people might you hire? What do you project? This is the specifics that I can do according to the letter from the Department of Health, ten employees, twelve seat donut coffee shop with no àishwasher and a retail bakery outlet with a deli counter can be the operation - - 5 - and two bedroom apartments, that is all I would be allowed on there but I would be allowed ten employees. At peak I w°';1ld think that we would be really work1ng those ten employees. We have for the last few summers, we have hired up to five empltoyees to operate out of the small bakery of about 1000 sq. ft. councillor Dickie councillor Dickie. Mr. Liss has some concerns, I think his concern about traffic echoes my concern about traffic and you have mentioned that the MOT are suggesting the turn in lane to your business of which I t~ink is appropriate but for an accelerat1on lane out of that, out of your business, they do not have that, is that correct? Mayor Drury Greq Van Andel I can read you the letter from the MOT if you like, it is not very long. councillor Dickie Well I think that you showed us a sketch Greq Van Andel It just says we can only allow one thirty foot access filled to Ministry standards, C.S. 19 complete with a paved taper. That is what the MOT specify. councillor Dickie At the time you were at the Medonte Council meeting there was some concern about a acceleration lane or a paved shoulder going to the North of that and I would just like to ask Kris, on a site specific zoning or on site control do we have any control that is, does the Municipality have any control over what is done on Provincial Highways for an acceleration lane to the North of this? Kris Menzies Councillor Dickie through the Mayor, no you don't on a site specific zoning. The Municipality is zoning the property you can't zone the highway. Similarly if Council sees fit to pass the zoning by- law, you have a site plan control agreement which looks to details as to where the building is located, where the parking is located so on and so forth. The site plan boundaries can only include the property of the applicant. You cannot register a site plan which looks at issues beyond the property boundary such as the highway. You can state where the entrance is but you cannot go outside of that. Presumably, when we circulate the site: plan, assuming Council adopts the zon1ng by-law, to the Ministry of Transportation they would ensure that a proper permit or something is required before this happens I would assume. Greq Van Andel The Ministry of Transportation has a site plan and made mention of it in the letter too, so... Kris Menzies But I think the issue is, can the Municipality mandate it that this happen through the processes that were permitted - 6 - council Member in the planning act and the answe~ is no but the Ministry of Transportat1on, I would assume, would requir~ their form of site plan prior to comment1ng favoura~ly to the Municipality on our form of s1te plan. Further to that, I think Mr. Van Andel showed us the site plan that the MOT ~as suggested as Mr. .va~ And~l or Mr. L~SS has indicated th1s 1S com1ng down a h1ll with the pav~d shoulder, that will be used as the turning lane, when people ~re making a left hand turn, people are g01ng to use that to go on the right side of them and it comes to an abrupt end and my concerns, and I think we addressed that at the Council meeting and you... Greq Van Andel I think that the diagram you saw from the Ministry of Transportation is not specifically for my site, they just say that generally what you have to have, they could come along to me and say afterwards, yah, you got to pave it x feet long past your driveway. That is not until I make the application. As a matter of fact, they sign off saying when you apply for the permits and then they will survey the property and then they will determine exactly what that may be and it may be, well be that I have to pave down the next mile, I don't know but what they sent me was the general thing they require for such project. But I would also like to say that we were talking about this piece of property, I do have a letter from Mr. Nesbitt who is now retired from the Ministry of Agriculture that surveyed my farm about five years ago and walked over it. The letter states that this would be impracticable even to consider for agriculture because you couldn't even put a plow in it. It is all rock and (inaudible) . Mayor Drury Reeve Caldwell. Reeve Caldwell Mr. Mayor, a few questions, two actually. Does your property front on anything other than highway 12? No sir, I have two thousand feet with a frontage on highway 12. Total farm. Greq YAn Andel Reeve Caldwell I I I I Mount st. Louis Road, okay, the second i question is, how many vehicles would enter your property, staff or customers in a day on average? Greq Van Andel Now? Reeve Caldwell Yes and would proposal? that double with your Greq Van Andel I would hope it would go a hundred fold. Seriously, at the present time we do not have many vehicles except for farming. Greq Van Andel - 7 - Basically our retail operation is closed except for summer months. I would ~afelY say there would not be more than,f1ve to ten cars a week that come 1nto my property right now for my bakery business. My business is transported out. Reeve Caldwell You take it out? I basically operate a wholesale business, basically. ii I Greg Van Andel Reeve Caldwell So the nature of your business would change quite a bit then? It would change quite a bit yes. Greq Van Andel Reeve Caldwell Well I think when it comes to access on the Provincial highways, the Province already has its' mandate and they will tell you whether or not you can and secondly, how you have to bring that ';1P to standard. I guess the key there 1S it depends on the traffic flows. The Department of Transport does not classify highway 12 as a major highway and as anybody who lives along the highway knows that probably for twenty out of the twenty four hours you could shoot a gun across the highway and not worry about hitting anybody. It is really not a high traffic flow highway. As we discussed at the last Council meeting, everybody else closes up at supper time because there is nothing moving on the highway. That is really true after people go to work and go home I from work, there is not much traffic. I Greq Van Andel Mayor Drury Councillor Martin, Deputy Reeve Dalziel and Deputy Mayor Beard. Councillor Martin As you know, there is a concern about it being dark at that corner, how do you, I can't remember how you plan to light up your... Greq Van Andel I believe there is four yard lights on each corner of the building and then there is from our last meeting we were going to put a yard light where the employee parking is. Mayor Drury I just want to make one quick comment through to Gary. Is there no fact report from the Township of Medonte, a planning report to accompany this application? Gary Cunnington I no longer have the file. There was a - the only negotiations with the previous Council were, we had worked out a site plan that was acceptable to the Council to go to a Public Meeting. There is a proposed site plan somewhere in the file as it exists now. If I may also comment on one other thing through to Councillor Martin, the developer that is putting a subdivision just down the road is Mayor Drury Deputy Reeve Dalziel Greq Van Andel Mayor Drury Greg Van Andel Mayor Drury council Member Mayor Drury Council Member Mayor Drury Deputy Reeve Dalziel - 8 - installing a street light at that intersection at Council's request, so there will be a street light at the intersection of highway 12 and the M~unt st Louis Road and we rece1ved co~respondence today that it will be installed in April or May once the snow is gone. That will be there regardless of this proposal. Deputy Reeve. Mr. Mayor. Mr. Van Andel I suspect that council may request that MOT ask you to put in the exit lane to the North. Simply because of the description that Mr. Councillor Dickie has mentioned. You indicate that someone could go out there with a gun and fire it I guess twenty hours of the day and not hit anything. I see that highway being a little busier than that. I also see it getting busier as the years go by and your business is going to be there hopefully all the time that all those years go by and that could be fifteen to twenty-five years. I think we have to be concerned about the traffic and that is why that exit paving on the shoulder may be a (inaudible). I have to do what the MOT tells me, I have no choice. I recognize that fact. Those lanes are quite expensive, you are looking at about $100,000.00 for a lane like that. That is a paved shoulder, turning lane. it is not a The concern before us was a left hand turn, was it not? If I might speak, he has suggested that he pave the shoulder of the highway leading into his property but not leading I out of his property. My concern is that I it should be paved as an acceleration lane out of his property. Well, what about the people coming and turning left off the highway. It is illegal to pass on the right when there is not a passing lane there, that is what I am talking about, that would be the biggest concern I would think. We have petitioned the MOT to put in a turning lane and they turned us down, and what he is saying is correct that they do not think that the traffic warrants it but if you are putting a turn lane into the pla~e and just cutting it off, you are ask1ng for trouble from people coming down and coming to an abrupt stop. Deputy Mayor. ~r. Van Andel did the MOT ask you to put in the paved shoulder? Greg Van Andel Deputy Reeve Dalziel Mayor Drury Deputy Mayor Beard Mayor Drury councillor crawford ~eq Van AJWI8i councillor Bell - 9 - Yes, yes. Just so we all understand that. a diagram or If we had benefit of something. Deputy Mayor. That is exactly what I was going to ~sk what Norm did if council approved th1s, but what th~ problem is, and w~at everyone is referring to that the turn1ng lane or the paved shoulder would be, the tapered pavement would be on the South side of persons driveway, there would be no tapered pavement going North, so the guy would swing around the car and all of a sudden run off the pavement when the pavement came to the end at the ot~er side of the driveway, on the North s1de of the driveway, so that is what we could maybe, through the MTO that it go through that they (inaudible) ask him to pave the North side and taper the South side. councillor Crawford. I think the reason for a paved entrance on the shoulder because you don't have any control of the traffic around you when you are turning off the highway and in like that. You don't know how close the cars are to you, so there is a certain amount of danger in pulling off. When you are pulling out you have full control and that highway is not so busy that you cannot watch and get yourself a clearing to turn out. I don't see the point and just as the same of the Ministry, yes the Ministry of Transport, it is the same thing, they don't see a need for an exit lane because there is not that much traffic on the route and there isn't that much traffic coming out of your place. I can see the paved shoulder to the end because, who is in front of you and who is behind you, you have no control over. But when you pull out onto the highway you do have control and you space it so you have lots of time to get out there without going into the traffic. ¡ WQuld just like to assure Council that Ì have full intention to do whatever the MOT tells me I have to do. I don't have any intentions of challenging them because I wouldn't win anyway and so I will do whatever they tell me and like I said, according to their letter, before anything can ever be done as far as construction or, I think they would have to personally view the property and then I layout their own plans and it would have I to be according to their specifications. ' I think to try and verify the situation, (inaudible) the entrance to this property is going to be directly opposite to the Mount st. Louis Road and it is not that i. Greg Van Andel councillor Bell Mayor Drury councillor Crawford Mayor Drury Mrs. Van Andel . - 10 - the traffic is going in or out of,Mr. Van Andel's is a concern to Counc1l. If someone is trying to make a left hand turn on Mount st. Louis Road, the person following will see the shoulder paved right there and pullout and pass them, once they get to his driveway th~y are back to directly on the gravel. It 1S not the driving going in an~ ou~ I am concerned with, because 1t 1S a T intersection. His entrance is going to be directly, he has an entrance 75 or 100 feet south of that, they say he has to close that and put it directly opposite the road. They may change their mind, I don'~ know but that is what they are propos1ng at the present time. Like I said th~S proposal is sent to me from somebody 1n Owen Sound that may not have even seen the intersection. I believe the original diagram was sent from their London office. The District office answered my site specific plan and told me what had to be done, but they also say that before you can get any permits or any construction or any signs or anything else can be erected, they have to visit the site and layout the engineering. Well I think that (inaudible) they go out to his property, if there is no road on the other side or anything, I am sure when they get out there and do a site inspection, they will probably ask for something a little different than what was on the original one. Councillor Crawford My only concern is that we carried away and start to ask of stuff that is unnecessary, that MOT know what they are they will make the recommendations. don't get for a lot I am sure doing and proper Any further questions, comments? your name please. state I am his better half and the Department of Highways certainly has scrutinized us, they could tell us exactly how many trucks go up and down our driveway from one end of the month to the other and one end of the day to the other. I beg to differ that I think they know what they are doing and have you know, gone ahead with it. They have, I think we were approached maybe three times on this three or more times but I think they d; know a little bit more than the credit that has been given tonight. They do know the traffic that goes up and down our driveway because they were going to criticise it as being a little larger than a cottage industry. So I think they do know, they are experienced people. That is my point. . I Mayor Drury Mrs. Van Andel - 11 - That is what we are paying them for. That is exactly it. councillor Martin Any further Martin I will say, they do have the figures because we have the figures, I presen~ed them to council because of the speed1ng going through Warminster and 70% of ~he speeders (inaudible) Medonte Townsh1p, they do have the records of travel of vehicles through the Warminster 20 km. discussion? councillor Mayor Drury Mrs. Van Andel Plus the hill is wide open, you can see everything from the top of the hill at Warminster as you are coming down there. There has never been an accident at Mount st. Louis Road in the eight years that we have lived there that I know of. Mayor Drury Thank you, any further comments, questions or concerns? What is the current use of this property now and how many employees do you have on the site and is it legal non conforming or just non conforming? Greg Van Andel I don't understand, no I don't think I am breaking the law if that is what you are asking me. Mayor Drury Kris, could you maybe expand on it. Gary cunnington Perhaps, maybe I should Mr. Mayor as Kris is not as familiar. When the business was started it was under our previous Medonte Township's previous zoning By-law which allowed this as a home occupation and Mr. Van Andel was within the bounds of the home occupation. If he came to you now with the existing Medonte By-law that went in in 1990 , I don't think it would be, so it would be a legal non conforming to the existing By-law. The problem of course is that Mr. Van Andel wants to expand and he is unable to do that in the existing annex to his house that he is operating out of. Mayor Drury Any further questions, comments concerns? state your name. or Allan Baker My name is Allan Baker. I would think that anybody that is striving to do something as this gentleman is, is going to run into red tape in terms of trying to get it in place and I think for someone taking the initiative to try and expand their business and offer employment at this stage of the game, should be encouraged. Mayor Drury Thank you. Reeve Caldwell. Reeve Caldwell Mr. Mayor, for Gary was there a planning report prepared by your planning consultant acting for the applicant or the Township's planning consultant? -- . I . Gary cunninqton - 12 - There certainly is in the file that ~r~s has, a report from the ,Townsh1p s planning people and there 1S also a proposed si te plan and correspondence. As Mr. Van Andel noted, this has been discussed before two previous councils to get to the position of going to a Public Meeting. Reeve Caldwell I guess my concern is, is there any real flags being waved by the planning consultant, I was concerned, if not, then. . . Gary cunnington No, basically we were at a point of holding this rezoning meeting late last year and it was felt that we would put it off to the new council. I think we have mentioned to the past council that this could have gone to a Public Meeting last December. Mayor Drury Any further questions or comments? There being no further questions or comments, when being called for the third time, the Mayor in closing the meeting, thanked those in attendance for their participation and advised that Council would consider all the matters before reaching a decision. He then advised those present that if they wished to be notified of the passing of the proposed By-Law, would they please leave their name and address with the Clerk. MOTION NO.1 Moved by Beard, seconded by Dalziel Be it resolved that this Special Public Meeting of Council (Part Lot 9, Concession 14, formerly Medonte) now be adjourned @ 8:21 p.m. Carried ~ s;Q ...../'/ J.. / ;/ ~ ROB E. DRURY~ MA' 0 ~. LYN~KfN, ~~Y CLERK