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06 30 1987 Sp Council Minutes THE CORPORATION OF THE TOWNSHIP OF ORO TUESDAY, JUNE 30, 1987 - OLD TOWN HALL SPECIAL MEETING - NEW MUNICIPAL BUILDING SIXTY-FIFTH MEETING 1985-88 COUNCIL Oro Council met this evening pursuant to adjournment @ 8:00 p.m. with the following members present: Reeve Robert E. Drury Deputy Reeve Thelma Halfacre Councillor David Burton Councillor Robert Swerdon Note: Councillor David Caldwell was absent Reeve Robert E. Drury chaired the meeting. Also present were: Mr. W.R. Salter, Architect, Henry Sander, Treasurer, Fred Haughton, Road Superintendent, Holly Spacek, Township Planner, Darlene Shoebridge, Kathy Hummel, Joan Fletcher, Linda Cameron, Garry Sanderson, Jim & Eleanor Clayden, Roy & Arlene Hastings, Dorothy Vousden, Bev Phillips, Merv Walt, Susan Grant, Doris Riffer, Harold Wild, Mr. & Mrs. Kenny, Mr. & Mrs. Renshaw, Mr. & Mrs. Woronka, Bill Cartmill, Don Munroe, Gord Waldie, Don Hanney, Gail Robinson, Howard Campbell, Maurice Truax, Bert Jamieson, one member of the press and approximately 65 members of the public. Note: The purpose of the Meeting was to review the proposal for a new municipal building and receive comments from the residents present at the meeting. Reeve Robert E. Drury introduced Members of Council and Staff present at the meeting as well as outlining the purpose of the meeting and the procedures that would be followed during the meeting. Reeve Drury then introduced Architect W.M. Salter who proceeded to review the past study and events that have lead to the present proposal to build a new municipal building. After Mr. Salter's presentation, Reeve Drury displayed the financial situation with regards to revenues and expenditures on a overhead projector and questions posed from the public were entertained at that time. Gordon Waldie: How much land was acquired at the site location? Reeve Drury: Approximately 5 acres. Dorothy Vousden: How much land is there now at the present municipal building? Reeve Drury: The lot size is approximately 400' x 180'. Dorothy Vousden: How much money is going to be paid by the taxpayers for this new building? Reeve Drury: We hope to sell off some township owned lands. There was $40,000.00 set aside by previous Council and $45,000.00 budgeted for this year. Drothy Vousden: Has the population in Oro more than doubled in the past few years? Reeve Drury: In 1977 the population was 6,223 the population is around 7,600. the Township is gaining about 3% and in 1987 At that rate, per year. Dorothy Vousden: Reeve Drury: Don Munroe: Reeve Drury: Bev Phillips: Reeve Drury: Doris Riffer: Reeve Drury: Deputy Reeve Halfacre: - 2 - So if you don't build now you will loose $115,000.00, and therefore the taxes will increase quite considerably and even if you do build this year, the taxes will be raised by quite a lot. As I explained earlier, the cost of the building is $650,000.00 plus approximately another $100,000.00 to finish it off. We currently have $213,000.00 set aside and at least $500,000.00 worth of Township Assets which are in the proceed now of being sold. I understand that some of the lands being sold are accesses to the lake. The accesses that are being sold were never used as proper lake accesses and one in particular has a 30 foot cliff to get to the lake. The decision to sell these Township properties was the result of a Parks and Recreation Study being done, which the Province funded for half of it, these lands were deemed surplus and are very big liability to us as far as insurance is concerned. Not all of the Township lands being offered for sale are lake accesses, some are parklands and have no use or purpose. How much money does the Township have tied up in None. We only have an application for debenture. If we go ahead an build the building and are fortunate enough to raise sufficient revenues, then we don't have to debenture. Was the whole Council in support of this or what was the ratio in applying for debenture? I'll let them tell you themselves. Up to last week I was opposed to it at any cost. Then I started adding up what the loss in terms of dollars would be if we didn't go ahead. So this week I did a lot of homework and digging and have changed my mind and am now in favour of debenturing and proceeding with the building. Councillor Swerdon: It was a 3 to 2 vote and I also voted against debenturing - I did then and I do now. Councillor Burton: I voted for it because I honestly feel the need is there and the debenture is just insurance you have to fall back on if we need it. Reeve Drury: Bev Phillips: Henry Sander: I would like to expand on that a little further. We went to the Province of Ontario to ask for permission to debenture only in the event we had a shortfall. So we applied for the whole amount just in case we got into this project and things fell apart on us. We are hoping we won't have to use any of it. What is the rate of interest for debenturing? I have been talking to some fiscal agents and the going rate is 10 - 11% but that is not guaranteed in todays time, especially with the Middle East situation being the way it is. I spoke with the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and they are using between 11 - 12% based on the debt capacity of the Municipality. Doris Riffer: Henry Sander: Harold Wild: Reeve Drury: Henry Sander: Reeve Drury: Dorothy Vousden: Mr.Small: Dorothy Vousden: Arlene Hastings: Reeve Drury: Roy Hastings: Reeve Drury: Dorothy Vousden: Reeve Drury: - 3 - How many years would this be amortized at? It would depend basically on the size of the debenture. In the paper we put done 15 years but one of the problems with getting people to buy debentures is the fluctuations in the interest rates. People don't want to get tied up for more than 10 - 15 years for debentures. If debenture is calculated at 11% on $600,000.00 over a period of 15 years, you would pay back $1,211,058.00 and at 12% it would mean $1,276,482.00. Thank you for that information. Those figures are probably correct, I have not run through it at $600,000.00 because we are not anticipating having to debenture. The costs look like they are about $750,000.00 total, we have $213,000.00 to date in the bank so that brings a total of $537,000.00. From that there are one or two deals yet that are highly probable in closing before debentures are to be looked at. As the Reeve has stated, there is more than $500,000.00 floating around in assets. One of those assets is the present office building now. It was appraised at $100,000.00 a year ago which is a bit out of date now. Who would want to buy it when according to the Architect it is redundant and is in poor condition. We already have had three interested clients who have left their names and phone numbers who has expressed their written interest in the building. It can't be all that bad then. According to advertisements that were in the paper, there are a couple of road allowances for sale with fairly big price tags which you are legally trying to close. Would it not have made better sense to close them first before you try and sell them. That is a legal function that has to be performed prior to them being sold. So why are they up for sale before the By-law is passed to close them? As I already have said, that is part of the legal process to be taken. We have decided to sell it and now have accepted an offer on it. You'll have to ask the lawyer. If you have already put the municipal building up for sale then you have already decided that you're going to build and why did you bother having this meeting? In other words, if the building is sold you're going to be out in the street so you better build a new building so you people will have a nice little place to sit. It sounds like you've already decided your building regardless of anybody's opinion. The only way we could determine what the true cost would be to tender. The Township building is not for sale. We have had 3 people interested - no offers. Doris Riffer: Reeve Drury: Don Hanney: Reeve Drury: Don Hanney: Reeve Drury: Maurice Truax: Reeve Drury: Maurice Truax: Henry Sander: Maurice Truax: Reeve Drury: Doris Riffer: Reeve Drury: Mr. Small: - 4 - Is it right that you have the well dug on the new site? Certainly not that I am aware of. The only work that has been done are soil tests. I live on Shanty Bay Road and am very close to the lake. I wonder if you really do have the right to sell property on the lake because our future generations are not going to be able to get to the lake if we start selling them off. The Oro Township Council deems it proper to sell them and so does the Province of Ontario. Does that mean that the Oro Township will buy more property on the lake for access? We paid $14,000.00 and the Province of Ontario paid $14,000.00 for a Parks and Recreation Study to be done. In that study, certain lands were deemed not to be of any use to the Township of Oro - and anyone who buys some of these properties it would probably cost them more to to fix it up than what they paid for it. What I don't understand is that if you do have to go to debenture, how does that square up on the tax bill as being charged to us? We can spread that over any time period up to 15 years. Will that be a flat rate for the residents or according to tax dollars? It will be shared by the whole Municipality. Therefore someone that is paying $500.00 in taxes doesn't pay near the share as someone who is paying $3,000 - $4,000.00. That's the way it is with everything in the Township. It's shared according to assessment. I remember from your meeting before you have a grant from the Ministry of Tourism & Recreation and you explained then that you would allow the Lions to hold their meetings there. I have are hard time understanding that this is recreation? You must be having some aspect of that building for the use of recreation. The Ministry of Tourism and Recreation deems that type of thing as recreation as well as for the Boys Scouts, Horticultural Society, etc. This was a new program that was brought out in for capital improvement program and one of the for that program was a new municipal building. space that can be made available to the public as your Council Chambers and Committee Room is under that grant program as being eligible and is why the Municipality was able to secure the 1986 criteria Any such deemed that grant. Reeve Drury: Gordon Waldie: Reeve Drury: Gordon Waldie: Reeve Drury: Mr. Salter: Doris Riffer: Reeve Drury: Merv Walt: Reeve Drury: Merv Walt: Reeve Drury: Merv Walt: Gordon Waldie: Mr. Salter: Bessie Crawford: Mrs. Kenny: - 5 - I have a letter on file here already from the Oro Senior Citizens and they are interested in using our new municipal facility. What space would be available apart from the Council Chambers for these outside groups to use. There is a room next to the Council Chambers which has a folding door as well as a Committee Room with kitchen facilities. How many people could be put in those rooms? I believe the Council Chambers would hold about 70 people. I believe that 20 - 25 would be possible in the Committee Room. Is this building air conditioned? Yes At what charge would these facilities be available to the public? Council would have to decide that. I believe there probably would be a custodial charge. If you were given a recreational grant, would that not be allocated for that purpose. The grant was to help build the facilities, not to maintain it. It's the same as the school boards, they charge a minimal fee for the use of their rooms. Therefore, we pay for it on our taxes and pay for it again when we use it. I see that the only advantage to putting it there is strictly to accommodate yourselves. We already have facilities and halls that we can use. Has it been investigated to putting a basement in the building and also did you consider expansion? I get asked about the basement on every job we do. Unfortunately because of the Ontario Building Code and the Ontario Fire Marshall utilizing basement space is not as cheap as people think it would be. First of all there has to be a 2 hour fire rating between the floor/ceiling and if the area is more than 2,000 square feet there must be two means of fire enclosed exits leading directly outside. Also, a basement is not accessible to a handicapped person. As far as I'm concerned, a basement is a very poor utilization of money. There are at least three distinct opportunities for expansion. The Oro Senior Citizens can't even find enough money now to rent the Oro Hall. I would be very pleased to see a new building and hall that would be easy to get into. Right now it is terrible and anyone who has had to help the handicapped person in or out of that hall knows it is terrible. Barbara Renshaw: Don Hanney: Reeve Drury: Don Hanney: Reeve Drury: Gail Robinson: Reeve Drury: Mr. Salter: Doris Riffer: Mr. Salter: Merv Walt: Reeve Drury: Lynda Crawford: Mr. Nelson: - 6 - I am delighted that the design doesn't resemble the City of Mississauga's new municipal building, and I am glad that they have not chosen to utilize the basement area. I would also like to congratulate Council on having a balance in the bank - there are not too many communities that have that. This municipality deserves a beautiful building with a focal point and will benefit the residents of Oro and something we can all be proud of. In answer to that, it is really nice to look forward to spending all kinds of money and put our grandchildren in debt. I don't understand why we need all this space to run a little Township when we already have new computers and all kinds of things. Why do we need this? Mr. Hanney, I would be more than happy to take you on a tour of our Township Offices someday and maybe you'll understand. Your overstaffed, is that what you're saying? No Mr. Hanney we are not overstaffed - if you would like to apply for a job while your there. At $76.00 per square foot, you could put a 5,000 square foot addition on the back of your existing building. As Mr. Salter stated in his presentation, that alternative was already considered and deemed not feasible. We were adding 6,620 square feet to the existing building and at that time we were spending $70,000.00 altering and servicing the existing building and spending $434,000.00 on the construction. If you translated that into today's dollars it would be $630,000.00 and would not have the sale of that property to offset your construction costs. I certainly don't think it's the bargain it appears to be. Also the access to and from the highway at that location is very dangerous. By the time you look at the need for new septic tank and tile bed and decent parking, you don't really have enough room. I believe that you still have to use the highway to get to the new building There is definitely more of a risk of accident wQen access is soley from the highway as opposed to a proper T-intersection. The driveway to your new municipal building is going to be dangerous. The hill creates blind spots and you're definitely going to have accidents there. We may have to go to the County and ask them to reduce the speed limit there and maybe consider taking some of the hill off. I will support Mr. Walt in saying that it is a very dangerous spot, especially when Fuda's have a 2nd driveway. I have almost experienced an accident there myself recently. I think that the hill should be taken off there and the entrance to Fudas at the top of the hill be closed off. Bill Cartmill: Bert Jamieson: Reeve Drury: Arlene Hastings: Reeve Drury: Mr. Woronka: Reeve Drury: Deputy Reeve Halfacre Merv Walt: Reeve Drury: - 7 - I think it's a really good idea to build your new municipal offices there because by being on the 7th you know they're not going to allow an airport there now. I've listened to a lot of discussion here tonight and I think Mr. Reeve you should put this meeting to a vote - yes or no. O.K. - all those in favour stand up. All those opposed stand up. I think if it was my business, and I was going to build new facilities, I think rather than having only $200,000.00 saved up with the possibility of getting another $500,000.00 I would wait until I had the total amount in my hand before I would proceed. Would you want to have to give back $115,000.00 grant and if you waited until the next year you would have to pay a consumption tax of 10 - 12% plus the escalating construction costs? I think it is wise to follow the Parks and Recreation Study and sell off the lands to build the new building. You've spend $14,000.00 for a study and your utilizing it. Building costs are not going to get any cheaper by waiting and it makes good business sense to me to proceed. If there are no more questions, I would like to thank everyone for coming out this evening and also would like to take this opportunity to invite you all to tour our existing Township Offices - not all at once though. I would just like to say Mr. Reeve that we should remind the people that when the original offices were built there were probably 2 staff there and now there is 10 to II daily, and that's not counting the Council and Committee Meetings and all other Meetings that are going on there. Did you ever consider purchasing property behind you and was that not feasible? Yes we did but that property was double the cost of what we have now and expropriation was not the route Council wanted to take. The meeting adjourned at approximately 9:35 p.m. 417/U. Administrator/Clerk Robert Small