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01 19 1988 Sp Council Minutes THE CORPORATION OF THE TOWNSHIP OF ORO TUESDAY, JANUARY 19, 1988 - OLD TOWN HALL SPECIAL MEETING - USE OF PRESENT MUNICIPAL BUILDING NINTIETH MEETING 1985-88 COUNCIL Oro Council met this evening pursuant to adjournment at 7:30 p.m. with the following members present: e Reeve Robert E. Drury Deputy Reeve Thelma Halfacre Councillor David Burton Councillor David Caldwell Councillor Robert Swerdon Reeve Robert E. Drury chaired the meeting. Also present were: Mrs. Pauline Radley, Regional Manager, Ministry of Correctional Services, Mr. Bill Canning, Area Manager, Ministry of Correctional Services, Mr. Gerald Ravensdale, Residential Services Co-ordinator, Ministry of Correctional Services, Mr. Barry Greenwood, Board of Directors, Morton I Youth Services, Mr. William Lee, Vice-President, Morton Youth Services, Dr.Carol McMaster, presidentl of Board of Directors for Morton Youth Services, Mr. Earl Snyder, Member Board of Directors, Morton Youth Services, as well as approximately 65 in teres ed residents and two members of the press. NOTE: The purpose of the meeting was to provide information to the Ratepayers with respect to the sale of the present municipal building and to outline its future use by Morton Youth Services. Reeve Robert E. Drury opened the meeting with a prayer. Reeve Robert E. Drury introduced members of Council and guests, including representatives of the Ministry of Correctional Services and Morton Youth Services as well as outlining the purpose of the meeting and the procedures that would be followed during the meeting. The Reeve then turned the meeting over to Mr. Bill Canning of the Ministry of Correctional Services. Mr. Bill Canning reviewed the history of the development of group homes under the Ministry of Correctional Services and more specifically in Simcoe County under the direction of Morton Youth Services. Dr. Carol McMaster, President of the Board of Directors of Morton Youth Services explained the background and development of Morton Youth Services in Simcoe County and gave an explanation of their activities and purpose. Mr. William Lee, Vice President, explained the development proposals for the present municipal building and how it will be used by the Morton Youth Services. e Mr. Barry Greenwood, Member of the Board of Directors, explained what programs would be offered within the facility. Mr. Earl Snyder, Member of the Board of Directors, of Morton Youth Services explained what renovations would be made to the present municipal building to accommodate the group home concept. Reeve Robert E. Drury then explained the history of how the Municipality made the decision to sell the present municipal building to the Morton Youth Services Group. The meeting was then opened to questions from the residents who were present: Norm Sneddon: Bill Canning: Norm Sneddon: Bill Canning: e Norm Sneddon: Carol McMaster: Norm Sneddon: Bill Canning: Norm Sneddon: Carol McMaster: Buffi Woronka: Pauline Radley: e Gail Robinson: Reeve Drury: Cou. Caldwell: - 2 - Q. You mentioned the use of a point system, how does that work? A. The point system is used for allowing extra free time for such things as watching televisio , reading, etc. Q. What type of recreational facilities were you referring to? A. Recreational time is usually programmed for maybe a couple of times a week but some of the boys will be attending school or could be working. Those remaining at the home would be involved in programs such as Life Skills Training which would be done by the staff and volunteers. Q. It sounds like most of their day time hours are filled, what do they do in the evenings? A. Their evenings are programmed for them as well. The only free time they may have would be perhap an hour after supper. They are encouraged to use their free time constructively. Q. Under the Young Offenders Act the nature of the offence is sometimes not publicized, do you have any control over the crimes that have been committed by these youths in your facility? A. The facility will only hold a maximum of 10 yo un offenders and we have to have some confidence in the courts that the punishment fits the crime. The range of dispositions that may occur could be breach of probation, theft under, failure to comply with court order, mischief, etc. and it is up to the Judge as to which facility they would be sent to, depending on the needs and requirements of the offender. Q. Why did you choose a rural setting like Oro? Were there no other facilities available in Barrie or Orillia? A. Quite simply no. We explored the Real Estate Market in great depth to find proper zoning. Q. Is there any plans for future expansion to house more offenders than the 10 proposed now? A. The Ministry of Correctional Services have a that we look for a facility for 6 to 10 beds. We would not be looking at expanding for more offenders but possibly for more additional programming space only. Q. Reeve Drury, you mentioned that the Offer had a 24 hour clause, is that normal? A. Perhaps I will let Councillor Caldwell answer that question as he's a Real Estate agent. A. My experience has been that Offers have anywhere from 24 to 72 hours to accept the offer. Offers sometime have conditions in them, this offer only had a few conditions in it for the benefit of ~he Purchasers like health unit approval, water supply There was nothing in the Offer that we could be particularly concerned with, the Offer was very straight forward. Gail Robinson: Reeve Drury: Carol McMaster: e Reeve Drury: Gail Robinson: Barry Greenwood Gail Robinson: Carol McMaster: Shirley Partridge: Bill Canning: e Diane Strachan: Cou. Caldwell: William Lee: - 3 - Q. Carol McMaster mentioned they were looking for property with proper zoning like Commercia" Is that what the facility is zoned? I I I The building is presently zoned institutional. I The ideal zoning is institutional, conunercial II is second and residential would be third. We I were looking for commercial zoning and then I, would have to apply for Institutional. It is certainly not easy going from residential to \ conunercial to institutional. Such things that I would be zoned institutional would be public I buildings, school houses, hospitals, etc. The~ don't very often come up for sale. I In the Township of Oro the list of Institutionj~ Uses includes arenas, churches, nursing and It! convalescent homes when provided with a piped water supply, public library, public and privat hospitals, public and private schools, clinics, clubs, institutions owned and operated by a i religious, educational or charitable organizati n supported in whole or in part by public funds, I an accessory use to any of the foregoing uses. \ A. A. A. Q. Someone mentioned that perhaps the young offend rs could be allowed to attend school, what about the ones that aren't? A. If there are not interested in school perhaps they could be working either in a paid situatio or volunteer or conununity work. If they don't I want to go to work or school, then they would i be involved in Life Skills Training because tha 's an attitude problem. Q. What is the difference between this facility an a group home? A. A group home has an open kind of concept that is more family oriented usually dealing with younger children in various age ranges. Staff component is heavy in the day time but does have a lot of supervision in the evening. When we are referring to custody we're responsi~ e for them and they have to be supervised 24 hours~~ What type of compensation is available if someon escapes from the facility and does damage to .11 neighbouring properties? II !, iI II I i, Q. A. The same way compensation would be made if it happened now - through insurance. The risk of this happening would be no greater than it is right now, we have a pretty good track record. Q. What was the reason for only giving 24 hours to accept the Offer? A. i~ :~u~~f~:v;Sto I II' II was because of the time factor involved. We ! had been looking for accommodation for some time I[il suitable for our purposes and we had been dealin~ with the Ministry who told -IS they could make I funds available. You must remember that at the II p end of the fiscal year that the funds would rl disappear and we would have to start over again. iI We did rush them, admittedly . Q. The length of time that is put determined by the Purchaser so be answered by them. The reason the Offer was written the way it was Diane Strachan: William Lee: Joyce Strachan: William Lee: e Joyce Strachan: William Lee: Lloyd George: Reeve Drury: Lloyd George: e Reeve Drury D.R. Halfacre: - 4 - Q. Are you sure that's the reason or was it because you didn't want the people of the Township to find out before hand. A. I can assure you that was not the case. We feel that what we are doing is a good thing, not a bad thing. Q. Can you tell me what type of training the staff will have to have to work there? Q. We have a standard requirement that says they must have a two year diploma from a community college or equivalent University education in social welfare or law and security. If they do not possess these qualifications we do not hire them. Q. You mentioned earlier that there is 1 staff person to 2 youths, is that 24 hours a day? A. Our staff is designed to give coverage 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. There would be somebody awake and on duty at all times. There would only be 1 staff during the sleeping hours. Q. To get back to this question, because I don't think it's been fully answered on Council's behalf, about the 24 hour acceptance. How much of a problem would it have created to have Council put a condition in giving them 30 days to come to a final decision only for the sake of being able to go to the ratepayers of this Township with a public meeting to get public input and at that time make their final decision Thirty days is not too much to ask is it? Especially with the way the government works it almost takes that long to get a letter from Barrie to Orillia. Why did Council not utilize this option when they returned the offer? I That evening we had the same advantage as what y u have tonight and a lot of the questions are repetitive to what was asked that evening. We thought it was a good use for the building and the representatives spoke to Council for a good hour and then Council discussed it again for about another hour and we came to a decision it was a 4 to 1 vote. A. Q. I think there is a difference when you say we have the same equal chance that you had that evening. We don't because from what I understan it's all cut and dried and no matter what is sai in this room tonight, that sale goes through. We're the people who put you in office and we can't do anything about it. A. Council made the decision to sell- the building and we are standing by, it. , . - " ., I Those-fiscal funds would have been lost had they not had it decided upon until the end of Decembe . We would have had to do it legally by advertisin in both newspapers and we didn't have the time. A. Reeve Drury: Steve Woodrow: e Reeve Drury: Steve Woodrow: William Lee: Steve Woodrow: William Lee: e Ken Andrews: Carol McMaster: William Lee: - 5 - A. Furthermore, to add to this about 90% of the people here this evening had asked the question a long time ago on how we were going to pay for the new building. We told them that this was part of the plan in paying for it and I think we would have lost the sale and would have had to go into debt. I think there would have been a lot of unhappy people here if that had happened. Q. The people from Morton House considered this the perfect facility I presume and was the only option left was it not? You said you went around and looked in Real Estate and hadn't found anything else that was suitable. Is that true? Is it not also true that when you have grant money available and a facility that you are looking at, could you not reapply for the grant? If that is the case, then there was really no rush for Council to okay this that night - they could have very well sent it back and Morton House could have reapplied for their grant and the people could have been informed. Is that not true Mr. Drury? A. No, I don't think so. We made good use of the time with the 24 hour option in and Council made a decision to sell the facility. Q. I don't see how, if the Province needs this facility they wouldn't give an extension on the grant. A. Yes you could reapply for the grant but it is a ong and involved process. We are a volunteer group and we do not get paid and we pay our own expens s. We have been working on this for some time and if Council had said no or delay it, we would have continued to look elsewhere and we may have found something else the next week. So I think I this influenced Council's decision too. There I was no-other reason why we were in a hurry except we had spent a lot of time on this and we didn't want to use anymore time than we had t . I I, Don't you think you need the proper attitude in ~ the Community to rehabilitate and make them feel that they are actually part of the Community? By doing this, you are creating a negative attit de. I I don't think so, the people of this Community h ve the same attitude as the people in Barrie had with the other Morton house. A. A. Q. When you purchased the house in Barrie, did you give the people in Barrie 24 hours to accept your offer? A. It never got public attention in Barrie. I was on the Board at the time and it was purchased in 1980 and we didn't need Council approval. A. With an institution like this there is always the same classified people living around the area that find out about it after its too late. Reeve Drury: Lloyd George: e Reeve Drury: Gail Winter: Carol McMaster: Joanne Sharp: Buffi Woronka: Carol McMaster: Buffi Woronka: Bill Canning: Buffi Woronka: Bill Canning: . Buffi Woronka: D.R. Halfacre: Cou. Burton: - 6 - A. I would just like to clarify a point at this time in the meeting that Council has made a decision and we have sold the building. I am surprised that the people here this evening aren't asking more about what is going to in that building now that it is sold. We are hearing questions about the decision we made. We made the decision and we are not going back on it. Now, I would like to see you people ask what's going to happen in that building. Our decision is final. Q. Why didn't you give everybody here the chance of asking the questions before you made the decision? A. We are elected to make those decisions. Q. We are in the tourist business and I don't think it would be very attractive to have a building on No. 11 Highway with a 6 foot chain link fence around it and a sign saying a detention centre. A. I have a 6 foot fence around my home and it wouldn't be much different than that. The plans are to camoflague the fence with trees, shrubs vines, etc. and the purpose of the fence is more for safety from the highway. Q. I live right next door to the facility and I would certainly like to see that 6 foot fence placed there. Q. You said earlier that sometimes there may be only 3, 5 or 7 youth there, what is the allocat of staff then, does it fluctuate depending upon the number of inmates? A. No, the staff compliment stays the same, much like the hospitals, police force, fire The only fluctuations which may occur would maybe be at heavy periods and we have the option of calling in additional employees and these costs are budgeted for. Q. Getting back to some of the offences, would break-in-enter be one? A. Yes. Q. What about sexual assaults and rapes? A. No. Q. Are there any Council Members who do not believe this facility should be located in Oro? A. I believe in it. I worked in an institution like this in England and I hope that the maj of our people understand the amount of people who depend upon an institution like this. A. I feel very comfortable that it has come to the Township and I think there should be quite a few positive benefits come from it, one being jobs, they will be buying locally their food and gas. I honestly think that everyone here would agree that this type of facilitiy is important and is in fact, part of our society today. I think we would be morally wrong if we turned our back on it. Very probably someone here may have someone very near and dear to them who may need the use of this type of facility in the future. Cou. Burton: Cou. Caldwell: e Cou. Swerdon: Reeve Drury: e - 7 - A. (Cont'd) I live in this Community and I have had some phone calls and people saying to me that these people are going to be walking around and harassing people; well I am here to tell you I am raising a family in Oro Township and I'm damn proud of it, and I would never support anything which I thought would be a detriment or a danger to them. A. I supported it at the time and I believe Councillor Burton has covered it very well. I think that if the Community really wants to work with these people that we can be a real help to them. They are there because they need help and if they were really serious offenders we wouldn't be looking at them. If our judicial system fails us, its up to us to holler and say get this person behind bars. Based on the information that we received before Council, I had no difficulty supporting it at the time and I have no difficulty supporting now We haven't heard anything really new, as a matte of fact I think we've had a little more detail tonight. I am quite comfortable with the decisi n. A. I voted against accepting the offer based on the consideration of the impact and I thought there should have been a public meeting prior to Council accepting the offer. I felt at that time there would be alot of fears and misconcept ons and exaggerations. Where my parents live in Toronto directly across the street there is a half-way house and has been for 20 years and there has never been an incident. It's not the use of the building that I oppose, it was the way it was done. As far as the finan ial aspect of it, $150,000.00 for the building if it was not sold, does not mean that it wouldn't be sold a month later to someone else. As far as I am concerned for people of this community it is not quite the same use as the present use of the municial building is and I felt that the people should have had the opportunity for input, for concerns, to receive the information they have received tonight. Council would then weigh all the factors and made a decision. A. I agree with the use of it and if I go back into history for a little bit, my grandfather was Sheriff in this County and I shared many stories with him and he told me about boys such as this and there was no place for them to go. We are really lucky nowadays to have volunters to sit on a board and take these boys and rehabilit them and place them back in our society. I am very proud to have this facility in our Township and I think it is wrong that rural municipalitie keep on saying to the cities you take the jails, you take the correctional institutions, we don't want any part of it. There is nothing wrong with us doing our share and I think it is going to be an excellent use and some financial gains for people in our Township like grocery stores, jobs to be had, and I just want to say that its going to be a good use and I support it. I would also like to make a recommendation that one or two people from the Community, not a politician, to sit on the Board of Directors. That way we would have direct input into the day to day operations of this facility. Bill Canning: Carol McMaster: Dave Rogers: e Reeve Drury: Bobbi McLelland: Carol McMaster: Alice McGuire: Carol McMaster: e Diane Strachan: - 8 - A. I would just like to capitalize on that and say that there will be an open house at the facility and we encourage you to go and have a look at it and see how it is run. A. We would really like to have two volunteers from the Township on our Board as we encourage good relations with the Community and like to keep them informed as to what is going on. A. I personally oppose to the use for which the property was sold. I must apologize to the Morton House people because I thought this meeting tonight was to discuss the method of selling the property and the hastiness of it as well. I purchase commercial real estate throughtout Ontario and I find it rather ludicrous that Council would take a sensitive issue like this and just because of an irrevocable date on the offer, say that they had to accept it within 24 hours without going to a public meeting. You say that you had an appraisal done in May of 1986, well real \ estate values in the Simcoe County market are estimated at 30% a year. I am saying that your appraisal was a year out of date. A. I'm sorry I gave you the wrong date. We had the first appraisal done in May of 1986 at $100,000.00 and another done in May of 1987 at $150,000.00. How would the youths go about about applying for a job - would you be with them when they went for interviews? If they got a job, how do they get back and forth? A. Possibly a staff member would accompany them but part of our training process is preparing them for interviews. A driver would take them to the interview, wait for them and discuss what happened at the interview after. Q. How would they get back and forth from their job; the Grey Coach will stop on the Highway but their schedule is rather staggard. Also, if the boys were going to school, how would they get there? A. It is evaluated before hand, for instance if they had a job in Collingwood and were in in Barrie and sentenced in this area, then they probably would not be able to keep their job. We do have drivers available and it would depend on where their work was and what the hours of work were, otherwise they could take the public transit system. If the boys are to go to school, then they would utilize the public/high school buses that run in the area. Q. This situation is the very same as the Post Office issue. Council were upset because they didn't come to them first and tell them about their plans now you are doing the same thing to us. Reeve Drury: e Lloyd George: Alice McGuire Barry Greenwood: Alice McGuire: Carol McMaster: e "?" Earl Snyder: Joyce Strachan: - 9 - A. I, , I I I We make many decisions throughout the year and I; we don't go to the public with very many of 1\ them. We pay the school boards millions of I dollars every year and we don't go to the publid every month before we give them the cheque. I With respect to the Post Office, we were 1 trying to sell our building at the same time andl if they hadn't made their mind up perhaps we could have sold or leased our building. That evening I asked one gentlemen if they would consider leasing the building or buying it and he said perhaps they would and later on that evening another gentlemen said they had already signed a contract with Fudas Foods, so that killed it right there. !\ I think these people should be commended for I the work they do but I also think it is unfortun:te that they have to sit here tonight and listen I to the questions that have been passed on to \ Council, and I think Council maybe should take I a look at themselves and think of the people thai put them there. This is not a case of where you got three months to get our votes and three years to ignore us and I think its high time that Council realize that there are people out here that do care what happens within this Township. I think on behalf of everyone here and I doubt too many would disagree with me that these people (Morton House) should be commended for the work they do, its voluntary, its a very much needed service but I think we should be condemning Council for the way they did it. Q. Q. What happens if say they don't want to go to school or don't want to get a job they just want to do nothing, what do you do in a situation like this? A. I think that if a 17 year old decides he doesn't want to do anything and just wants to sit down, there's not much you can do and he will be I' sitting down. This would show an attitude problem \ and we would try to alleviate this. They are expected to co-operate and show some effort I for self-improvement and if they can't do that I I they may be looking at another placement. . Q. But what if they have just made their mind up and they are going to leave. What do you do then If they leave they leave, the doors are not locke \. That is part of the open custody concept. They \ can do that right now from our facility in Barrie. Nobody has. The police would be contacted II immediately and it becomes a breach of their orde~rl so they go back before the courts. It is certaini not to their advantage to do that. I i A. Q. How long does it take the staff to realize that someone is missing? Ii Ii som~one Ii I lif~ A. Immediately, the doors are alarmed so that the person on duty would be aware of the fact that has either come in or left. Q. I'm like Mr. Drury, I have lived in Oro all my and we have never had to lock our doors. Will we be able to go out now and go to the barn withou# having to lock our door? Ii I: I Earl Snyder: Norm Roe: Q. e Murray Ross: Q. Carol McMaster: Murray Ross: Reeve Drury: Brian Strachan: Carol McMaster: Reeve Drury: Cou. Caldwell: . - 10 - A. You have no assurances that isn't happening right now while you're at this meeting. I have been a Police Chief in the City of Barrie for over 10 years and I can honestly say without fear of contridiction that we have had very, very little trouble with Morton House. We might have had one or two calls there in 10 years. Its amazing! We are not dealing with the hardened criminals, we are dealing with people who are there for minor offences. Will the boys be able to watch television? Because if they are, they sure won't be long figuring out how to beat the alarm because they show it on television every day. There is a restaurant and a grocery store very near to this facility, are they free to walk out the door and go to these places? A. We would question why they would ask permission to go to a grocery store when all their food is supplied for them here. If they went to a restaurant, they would be accompanied by a staff member. Q. I would just like to say that I have nothing against the Morton House people, I have no reason to; but I do feel the same way as some of the rest do that Council made the wrong decision about accepting that offer within 24 hours. It is now almost 9:00 and we'll have just a couple more questions from the floor before we adjourn for the evening. Q. How would these youths who may be allowed to attend school, get there? A. They would_be picked up by the local school bus transit system and taken to their respective school. I would like to thank everyone for coming out this evening and participating in this meeting. I would also like to thank the people from the Ministry of Correction Services for attending and the representatives from Morton House for their presentation. I would just like to comment to Mr. George that if you are qualified to run as a Council Member, there is an election coming up in about nine months. I would like to have an indication by a show of hands from the people present, how many would like to see Council change their mind if we could? You don't want that facility? The meeting adjourned at 9:15 p.m. ~t.ll UI. C fPr Re~ Ro ert E. Drur .