Loading...
11 01 1988 Public Minutes '" . THE CORPORATION OF THE TOWNSHIP OF ORO I TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 1988 J' SPECIAL PUBLIC MEETING 0 I, HUNDRED AND TWENTY-FIFTH MEETING 1985-88 COUNCIL cd~ncil met this evening pursuant to adjournment at 8:00 w~~h the following members present: ill ~::~~y R~~:~= ;he~~~r~alfacre II. Councillor David Burton I Councillor David Caldwell III Councillor Robert Swerdon Airo present were: II II I' I I , II Nolte: I 1.11 I p.m. Stephen Woodrow, Ron Sommers, Buffi Woronka, Meryl Drake, Dave Woronka, Howard Caldwell, Ron Kolbe, Alastair Crawford, Robert James, Lloyd Chappell, Dwight Taylor, Bill Pidlysny, Warren Lough, Allan Johnson, Orma Lees, Keith Lees, Don Partridge, Charles Batt, Roy Hastings, Fran Hanney, Dale Fraser, Bill Staines, Trudy Walt, Joyce Wilson, Shirley Woodrow, Merv Walt, Ian Malcolm, Bruce Crawford, Henry The purpose of this Special Public Meeting was to review the plans of the proposed renovations to the Oro Community Centre Arena. DISCLOSURE AND DECLARATION OF CONFLICT OF INTEREST None declared. Th I Co ncillor Swerdon questioned whether this meeting was a public me ting or a meeting of Council. When the Reeve responded that it was a Public Council Meeting, Councillor Swerdon questioned de laring it as a Public Meeting since the Procedural By-law do s not permit a Special Public Meeting be called without a rellolution of Council. Thff Administrator/Clerk Robert Small referred to the Procedural By law and stated there was no definition between a Public Special Me ting of Council and a Special Meeting. Mr. Small also re erred to Sections 57(2) and 58 of the Municipal Act and stated th t Council is to determine whether such meetings are open to th public or closed. Reeve called the meeting to order. Re ve Drury stated that at the last Council Meeting Councillor Sw rdon insisted that a public meeting be held to hear the views on~llthe proposed addition to the Arena. Due to the time elements inolved with tender contract and upcoming Candidates Meetings, ths evening was the only night available to hold this meeting. He]alSO stated that it was his opinion that all Council Meetings ar~ open to the public and that this meeting was no different. Co ncillor Swerdon responded that he was very much in favour of public meetings, however the Procedural guidelines under which Co ncil operates is important. Relve Drury asked the other Council members present if they had an objection to proceeding with the meeting and received no other ne ative response. Th th Reeve then introduced Mr. Ian Malcolm, Architect to explain proposed renovation plans to the Oro Community Arena. - 2 - , ' conclusion of Mr. Malcolm's presentation, the Reeve asked if those present had any questions. hen Woodrow: Will the second floor run the full length over the change room area and will an air conditioning unit be added? The second floor is the existing second floor their is not a second floor over the change room addition. Exhaust ventilation is included in the price and we priced as an extra a new air conditioning unit as an option. Lough: What have you proposed for septic? lcom: We have allowed a $6,000.00 contingency to allow any expansion to the lineal runs. Lough: Do you not show the outgoing lines to the tanks under the change rooms? Yes, there is no problem building over the outgoing lines. Staines: The tanks there now have been a problem in the past and there is an old dead well behind the old building. If you relocate the tanks you would have to have a pump. In my estimation there is enough gravity feed. ht Taylor: There are two pumps on the lines now. en Lough: Are you aware of the pumps (architect)? I personally am not but I have staff that ran the job for me and they would know about them. Staines: What is the present condition of the existing building? I believe it has the original roof and am not aware of any work being done on insulation. Ia Malcolm: Bi Staines: Re e Drury: Yes, it is the original roof. The curling club in Orillia has just been shut down for not meeting the standards. Every five years we have an engineering report done and this summer one had been performed by Ainley & Associates indicating that everything was in tip-top shape. hen Woodrow: What is the total cost of this project? With the elevator in, its $415,644.00. s Batt: What is the seat capacity? 210 - 212 les Batt: What does it hold now? 150 les Batt: How come the cost went from $175 - 200,000 up to $400,000.00? When the Guthrie Hall was standing we had a cost of anywhere between $175,000 - $200,000 to replace that building inside the Arena. Drury: Taylor: Hastings: Drury: Hastings: Drury: Hastings: Drury: tings: Sander: Hastings: Drury: I lcolm: Drury: Woronka: Ina Malcolm: - 3 - We initially just looked at redoing the hall then after further discussion, we determined that there was a need for extra dressing rooms and to revamp the entrance. The four dressing rooms are not enough to run a tournament, we have three tournaments booked this year that will cancel if this project does not go through. When did you decide to have this public meeting? I contacted th~ Clerk on Wednesday to call a public meeting and it was advertised in the newspapers twice. At a meeting last spring you said you would be looking at between $175,000 - $200,00.00. Our first estimate I believe was $330,000.00. We'll get into financing later on this evening. I am not against the addition, I object to the way it is being done. We were assured that we would be contacted and would have imput in to it. Merv Walt was contacted on these renovations and is he not on your Committee? How much money has been spent to date on this already? Currently there has been $3,000.00 in architectural fees paid and $350.00 to the Ontario Municipal Board for debenturing proceeds to have it in place if it is needed. Will people be able to afford to rent the facility and how much would it cost? I would imagine it would be market value, we wouldn't run it at a loss I believe Ian Malcolm had some comments on what we could expect to receive in revenues from the facility. I don't believe I can state what this facility would generate you in income but I did the convention hall at Continental Inn which was licenced for 500 and I know that the room is booked solid, usually in advance of a year. His charges depend upon what functions are going on there. There has been different Committee groups come to the Township wanting to rent facilities and we look at this under the grant procedure. What would the time factor be from the time it is approved and started to when it would be completed? 6 - 7 months. We talked about doing the change rooms first and the banquet facility second. The change rooms would come on stream within 3 months. S Al Woodrow: Drury: Woodrow: Drury': Woodrow: Sander: Woodrow: Sander: Drury: Johnson: Drury: illor Swerdon: I question the timing of this project - it seems rather close to an election and being rushed through. You are leaving a great responsibility onto the next Council by the possibility of a debenture. I see no great rush and perhaps the new Council should make the decision. This Council decided to move ahead with it and have applied for a grant of $99,000.00 from the provincial Government. This money must be spent by the first of the year or return it. My plans are, if Council goes along with, is to use the proceeds from the sale of property in the north end of the Township, some $570,000.00, to go towards the arena facility. It's interesting that the Provincial Government has its grant system set up so that the Municipality can get new administration building and new arenas and not what is needed like hospitals. I am on the hospital board and also involved through County Council where we are putting aside approximately $9.50 per capita per person in the County of Simcoe to go towards five new hospitals and/or additions. Why aren't we putting money aside for a new arena instead of accepting grants and selling properties. Instead, we're putting money aside from our tax dollars for a new hospital. Each year the Ministry of Culture and Recreation defines what the budget will be allocated to. Basically it works on a first come, first serve basis and setting of priorities. Could the next Council then not apply for a recreation grant in their term for a new arena. Everything is set on priority and next year a new project may come along which is more expedient and Oro may be turned down. There is no guarantee - you have it this year but may not next year. There was a Parks and Recreation Study implemented by Council indicating that the arena should be the focal point of the Township of Oro for recreational facilities. It was also indicated at that time that it should be upgraded. Do I understand that last Monday night was the closing of the tenders? No, we opened the tenders at that time and Council decided that the plans that were before us were the plans that should take place. It is my understanding that the decision was not to proceed because it was insisted upon that the public should be informed prior to this decision. It was also questioned as to the legality of the Township to introduce this type of proposal within two weeks of an election. I believe the comment made was that it was morally wrong to proceed and put the next Council into a position of finalizing what this Council starts. The purpose of the public meeting was to listen to the input before Council proceed on anything. - J - I do not have any problem with the need but how can we go from a debt free municipality and leave it to the new Council? re: Drury: I believe I mentioned it earlier that we do have the cash up front. ty Reeve As I understood it, we were applying for a debenture. Drury: We applied for a debenture when we first talked about this project for the total cost of the project for a safety valve that all municipalities should use. We used it on this building when we applied for $650,000.00 which we never used a cent of it. We are doing the same thing with the arena, we applied for a debenture. I am suggesting to Council that we have the money in the bank so lets use it. If we don't debenture, I have no problem with it. It's just debenturing that I am against. Lough: I agree with Roy Hastings. He tendered on it and his statement that they proceeded to fast I think is the general opinion of everyone we have heard from so far. If you've got the money, what is the rush? I Malcolm: If you waited to spring, the tenders would not be cheaper. You must know that no building tender six months later is going to be any cheaper. Lough: Well I think it would be. The only thing that has gone up up here is material. Kolbe: You said there was a $99,000.00 grant. Now my understanding of grants is that it doesn't have to be spent by January you just have to initiate the project. Sander: We have to spend what we have on hand by December 31, 1988. Kolbe: I am sure that if you wait, any of the contractors including Roy, are not going to give you a price next spring the same as it is now. And to say that it is morally wrong for a Council to pass on a debt is a crock of ---- ----. You can't operate by worrying about what the next council is going to do. This Council here has done a good job so far and this is just a technicality to start a building and keep going, that's life and it happens everywhere. I agree that the need is there and if there is no debenture, then you have my support as a taxpayer. I hope the project goes. Walt: If you have the money to cover it, why are you worrying about this grant anyway? Drury: That's $100,000.00 less that has to come out of our pockets. - 0 - Drury: I don't know the reason why the people in this room want to delay this,roject. If you wait until next year it will probably cost $50,000 - $100,000.00 more Walt: I think the people are getting a little nervous about this Council rushwg it. S Woodrow: Do grants not come out of our pockets too? Drury: Indirectly but if we don't get them then Dufferin or Grey County will get them. Woodrow: This government seems to encourage deficit spending and I don't quite agree with that. Drury: This Township isn't deficit spending Mr. Woodrow. We have the money in the bank and the tax increase has been reduced this year. Lough: I don't think Council's got the grip on what the major opinion of the crowd is, that they're not much of a Council. Drury: I would like to ask the people in the audience by a show of hands how many think, with the information before them now, we should proceed with the project or scrap it. Lough: Rephrase the last wording of that. Drury: Okay, delay it, and if delay it. I would like to hear a good reason. Drury: (after a show of hands) 7 to 12 and Merv you voted twice. illor Caldwell: I think we should have a breakdown on how it could be financed. There are some other options which the public should be entitled to hear. Sander: There are different means of financing this project. Earlier you heard of a $99,000.00 grant the Township has in place, there is another grant available to be applied for if the project goes ahead on the elevator which would be close to $10,000.00. Property we sold earlier this year and $18,000.00 Council set aside by resolution for renovations at the arena and there is $13,000.00 incorporated within the 1988 operating budget. As the Reeve has mentioned there is property in Craighurst that Council has not decided on the disposition of those funds. Another safeguarding we do have in place is the debentures. There is also the 1989 levy if they want to go that route but the proceeds are in place right now to finance it. Those are basically the options available to Council. Drury: For what reason would we delay this project. I seen 7 people with their hands up and I would like to hear from at least 1 or 2. B 1 Staines: The short time I was associated with the arena, one of the big problems was that there wasn't a large enough hall. From what I can see we haven't increased the size that much. We would still need a facility to be used for a banquet hall, bingo, dances, scouts. That hall as it is situated now is terrible for smoke, even with the best ventilation system, and I think that it should be looked at again. I - 7 - Drury: The plans now are to raise the ceiling and improve the ventilation with air exchangers and possibly air conditioning. Right now if you have 1~0 people there it's overcrowded. The new propo~al will hold about 210 people and be comfortable. That's a big improvement. Shanty Bay Hall capacity I believe is around 200. If you are wanting a hall larger than that, you'd be looking at mega bucks to do it. Kolbe: Could someone clarify on the height of the ceiling? Malcolm: We raised the ceiling only in the centre to about 10 - II feet. Walt: Does anyone have a breakdown on the user groups that are using the ice now? Taylor: Minor hockey use it 29 hours a week, ringette 23 hours, 77's use it 6 - 8 hours a week, adult skating 2 hours, figure skating 8 hours, and men's rec league 4 hours a week. Walt: How many hours a week are rented out to other clubs outside of Oro Township? Taylor: About 4 hours a week. Drury: Do you have as many hours booked in the arena this year as we did last year? Taylor: Yes and we're getting more now even though minor groups are getting away from the arena but the age group of 35 - 50 are coming in through a lot of pick-up hockey. Walt: On the concept of front being open, are we not working on the wrong end of the facility? You are wanting the people to enter off the side road and not the highway. Drury: Council looked at the initial cost when it came in and considered ways in which to chop corners. One of those procedures was the front entrance - if we wanted to save $11,000.00 we would urge the people to use the side entrance. The front would be landscaped and keep it available to emergency vehicles only. Walt: We all now the original design was wrong to start with but would it not be more feasible to put the structure you talked about to the back end of the arena? Now the cost is irrelevant in the sense that we're going to spend $400,000.00 and make do with what we have or do we wait until there are a few more dollars in place and go ahead with what was proposed initially. You got the sport facility behind you now and once you get the soccer field I think you'll have the whole thing backwards. Drury: If we go with that proposal you'd be looking at almost double the amount of money and it would be along time before the Township of Oro could come up with $800,000- $1,000,000.00 do build that kind of a structure. Malcolm: You definitely couldn't put the dressing rooms in the front area. There's an operational problem there now with the players and the spec- tators. The new six dressing rooms would be approximately 1~ to 2 times bigger than they now exist. The parking is on the south side of ( I t'd) Malcolm:. Walt: I Malcolm: i Woronka: Drury: Chappell: Drury: Hastings: Lough: Sander: Lough: Sander: - 8 - the building and once you've parked in that area you would vere towards the highway or the reLr. What we are utilizing now is the facility that you've got. You have the space there and for not that many dollars you could have a back facility available next spring but if you wanted a larger one, you'd have to start fund raising now. It would make sense to me that it would be better to have at least some facility available for the next 2, 3 or 4 years and then put on a major drive to put up a larger 500 - 600 room facility. That could be 10 years. Why don't we leave in place and work with what we have at this given time and work towards the proper structure at the far end of the building? We're not going much farther than that,we are basically leaving the structure as it is other than taking out space and increasing the size of it, more internal renovations. It's not $400,000.00 just for a banquet facility. You will have 145' x 125' of new change rooms and referee space which is generating revenue on its own. There are two facilities being put into this $400,000.00 project. What about usage of the upstairs now, is it used on a regular basis and would it be comparable in size or smaller than the Shanty Bay Hall facility? In relationship to the size of hall, I think it would be equal if not larger and perhaps Lloyd Chappel our Assistant Arena Manager could answer your first question. The upstairs is only licenced for 110 for liquor licence and we receive calls all the time, at least 2 to 3 a month, but they're looking for rooms that hold 165 - 200 range. I think the most common size of a group would be 150 - 250 and referring back to Bill Staines's question about a larger facility, I don't think the Township of Oro needs a larg~place than that. The only other event that may be larger is the Oro Fest which is held on the arena floor. I have a few comments to make as to why I voted against it. The first is the way in which it was done, similar to other things that have been done in the past by putting the cart before the horse. The other thing is the matter of being debt free. We're debt free now, but will we be debt free tommorrow? You mentioned this property in Craighurst, is this where you are getting the $500,000.00 from? In other words, it's not sold yet and it's not in the bank. Yes it is sir, everything is complete. Then you phrased it wrongly, it has been sold. The disposition of the funds has not been set aside by Council to date. They haven't instructed me what to do with the $570,000.00. I Lough: Malcolm: fi Woronka: S S Woodrow: Drury: Woodrow: re: Woodrow: Woodrow: S Woodrow: Drury: - ~ - It's sitting in the bank drawing interest right? Now a question for the architect, the 210 people that you stated, is this what a liquor licence would hold? Yes, that is correct. I just wanted to say that I understood Henry correctly what he had said the first time that Council had not disposed of the funds received from the sale of the property. If we held off another year to build this facility it makes sense to me that it would probably cost more. If we had sold that property another year done the road would we have not gotten more money for it? The property wasn't necessarily sold to fund this project. Why was it sold then? It was sold because it was not, as has been proclaimed as some people, dedicated park land. It was land acquired and when you question what we would have gotten had we left it for another year or two, what would it have brought had we sold it a few years ago. So it is all relative of the costs regarding the times. Since the arena needed work it is better to maintain and refurbish it than be closed down. Therefore it was a good opportunity to sell some of the land, some of it not all of it, and apply it to something that is going to be beneficial to the Township. I have no problem with maintaining and refurb a building so that it's up to standard in order that it won't fail the next test, but I think Merv made an excellent point that another reason for not rushing it is that maybe we aren't building the facility we really want down the road. That is why we're having this public meeting. We have had lots of meetings regarding the arena even prior to taking the hall down. So that I would think by now that the public generally knows what is required there and what they need and want and if they haven't they're not letting us hear about it, instead of just the 1 or 2 that have been consistent. So this public meeting is being held to see what we think about it and Council has not asked for tenders from contractors yet. Yes. In other words you decided to go through with it before having a public meeting. You're trying to twist Thelma around. We have asked for tenders, have gone to tender but have not accepted any as yet and that is very clear. - IU - ~WaOGrow: I understand that. Thelma has no problem with me, we have arguments many times. I think there may be some other people uneasy but I am not trying to twist Thelma around at all. What I am trying to make clear is have you decided to go ahead with it and are we having a public meeting after the fact or are you actually going to listen to these opinions? Drury: We haven't accepted the tenders yet, I have told you have 3 or 4 times tonight and no one seems to be listening. This public meeting is important to me to know how the people feel. My decision is based on the majority of the people in this room feel. Woodrow: Do you feel Thelma that the people of Oro Township were given enough notice before this public meeting? I would have like to have longer notice and incidentally I would like to say that I also requested a public meeting when Councillor Swerdon did. Lough: It's fine to want a public meeting but to have to give your decision within a week is rushing everybody and furthermore leave the $500,000.00 in the bank at 10% interest which I assume you are getting at least, and there's $50,000.00 you've made. Plus if you want to take another gamble at the $99,000.00 you'd be farther ahead again. How many people who said they would support this to go ahead now are actually arena users? (9 out of 12) It seems that there will also be objections to whatever you do because you can never get everyone to go the same way. The same thing happened with this building there are always some objectors towards anything you do or what the next Council does. I think you have to make a decision and if you procrastinate, it's going to cost you more money later on and your not going to get the benefit of the use. There are various developments going on in the Community like Harbourwood and Shanty Bay and the arena is your focal point for young families. Ask Mr. Lough when was the last time he was in the arena? Lough: I've never been in the arena but I'm certainly not against it. I can see half of this project going ahead but I can't see the other half. Drury: This Council thinks that these plans are the plans for the proper thing to do. The Council that built that arena back in 1970 made the decision to build that arena and a lot of people were against it. We have a chance now to bring it up to date and have a first class facility at a minimal cost compared to what it could be later down the road. illor Caldwell: Merv, did you not get an opportunity to look at these plans prior to Mr. Malcolm finalizing them? Did he not do some draft - 11 - drawings of the arena and did you not suggest at that time of putting the addition at the back? I do not recall that you did but you may have. Walt: I talked to Mr. Small a number of times with what they had proposed doing on the front I had a few changes at that time, but I hadn't had a chance since then. The discussion was at the time that the facility should have been on the back. Another matter is the crack in the structure, has that been looked at? I Malcolm: That was dealt with at the beginning of the meeting. The Engineer from Ainley & Associates was hired by Council to investigate the crack and the findings were that nothing had to be done with that so therefore we're not addressing that problem. Drury: I would like at this time say that Merv, Roy and Charlie earlier on when we had discussions over the hall that you were all very adamant to have a fund raising drive and raise $40,000.00 to put towards the hall. I would like to throw that challenge back to you gentlemen to put that fund raising drive into effect and bring that $40,000.00 for the new facility at the arena. Batt: I would just like say that I was death against the hall going down. I lived through the days of the hall in my town that my father fought for which came down. Today we have a maple tree growing there today. As of today we have a parking lot in Oro. We could have fixed the Guthrie Hall. Before our meetings, the hall was cut and dried that it was coming down. This meeting tonight is about the extension and it too is cut and dried before this meeting even started. I am not against the arena, let's continue with the arena to the best of the availability. You will not rent the upper structure to anyone who won't want to climb, the older people will not do it. Let's continue on, $500,000.00 now and double it next year so that we end up with a hall that can be rented at the back and that~s the right way to go. Drury: Are there any more comments before we close the meeting. The last time we held a public meeting I was accused of not letting them go on long enough so I am prepared to sit here until midnight so let's have some questions. If there are no more questions, I will ask for a motion for adjournment. Are there are any more questions for the third and final time. by Deputy Reeve Halfacre, seconded by Councillor Swerdon this meeting be adjourned at 9:50 p~ Clerk R bert W. Small