07 10 1989 Public Minutes
I
I
I '
I
I
. I
I
I
I
I
I
II
II
,I
I
I
I
I
till
I
d
II
I
I
I
I
I
II
.
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
ì
I
í
~,
THE CORPORATION OF THE TOWNSHIP OF ORO
SPECIAL PUBLIC MEETING
MONDAY, JULY 10, 1989 @ 7:00 P.M. - ORO ARENA
FORTIETH MEETING 1988-1991 COUNCIL
The following members of council were present:
Reeve Robert E. Drury
Deputy Reeve David Caldwell
Councillor David Burton
Councillor Alastair Crawford
Councillor Allan Johnson
Also present were:
Bev Nicolson, Ron Watkin, Paul Eenhoorn, Darlene Shoebridge,
Ross Raymond, Holly Spacek, Stefan Bolliger, Robert Long,
Thomas Wheaton, Jim Noble, Ellie Noble, Ted LaPBlm, Dianne
LaPalm, Edna Morris, Sue Emond, Rick Vanderzande, Bert
Schumacher, Pamela Hutchison, R.E. Hutchison, Jenny Hu
Jane Hutchison, Mary Neyvatti, Dorothy James, Cy Neyvatti,
E. Hall, John Hare, Elsie Hare, Hubert Schaefers, Sandra
Black, Rick Black, Anita Beaton, Ted Beaton, N.A. Campbell,
Carol Alderdice, Laurel Hibbard, David Hibbard, Walt Dickie,
Peter Walsh, Nelson Robertson, Gary Bell, Vivian Bell,
C.R. Grovcs, D.A. McInroy, Marjoire Roe, Norman Roe, John
and Anne O'Kurily, Aart Van Veld, Gladys Arff, Kathy Heal,
Allen Jones, Laura Jones, Beverley Davenport, Vera Ackroyd,
Don Tanner, Lorie Tanner, G. Luker, Ann Luker, E. Dobesberger,
Alfred & Betty Jacobs, G. Booth, J. Bolander, Kristin Ego,
Kelly Coones, J. Cayley, Lloyd Fletcher, Joan Fletcher,
Vic Peck, Pauline Peck, Loranie Peck, Joan Reid, Larry Jean,
Earl Juneau, Frances Juneau, James Mercer, Peter Kaynes,
Gerry Kaynes, D. Ferrie, Karen Muscat, Lorna Sommers, Ron
Sommers, Allan Pirrie, Kathie Pirrie, T. Muscat, Barbara
Muscat, Doris Richards, Cliff Richards, Stewart Haidle,
Gord Wagar, Paul Ego, Robert Ego, Shirley Marman, Leita
Handy, Kimberly Viney, Frank and Irene Gracey, Joanne
Rolland, Philip Hull, Dawn and Jack Bonney, Twylla and
Harry Long, Irma Harper, Kim Mosen and Jim Drury, Bill Bateman,
M. Proper, Peter Kirkely, Ed Webber, Diane Pitt, Ted Pitt,
Harold Caldwell, June Beard, Lynda Baker, Allan Baker,
Thomas Kinn, Stan Farrell, C.W. Vyse, W.A. Street, G.W.
Andrews, Beverly pope, Linda Humphreys, J. Morley Hoffman,
P.J. Kurtz, Randy Phillips, Alice, Barry, and Susan Cockburn,
Peter Simpson, Barry Anderson, James Lam, Ross Coneybeare,
David Brown, Brenda Brown, Richard Anderson, Ray Schiele,
John Nicollini, Ann McIntyre, Joseph Morache, D.R. Anderson,
lain Beaton, Paul Weidman, Elaine Simpson, William Holdsworth,
Alan Bromley, Leslie Saila, David Mortell, Barry Campbell-Nash,
Lynda Crawford, Pearl Robinson, Pat Pollock, Gail Robinson,
Marg Mortson, Al Krushel, Doris Riffer, W.A. Young, Barry
Griffith, Dan James, Nancy Williams, Edwin Abbott, Susanne
Vinnie, Norman Vinnie, Ron Robinson, Sylvia Beard, Jack
Anderson, Paul and M.L. Amos, Ray Villeneuve, Pat villeneuve,
Gladys Gronfors, Judy Caldwell, Scott Lang, J. Miller,
Victor DeMartini, M. Atwood, H.L. Atwood, John and Michelle
Lynch, Leigh McFadgen, Audrey Ormerod, Mike Vass, Inge Vass,
Bill Stonkus, Paul & Lee Blakeney, B. Campbell-Nash,
Fiona Campbell-Nash, Joan Leigh, Paul Leigh, Naomi Ball,
Lorraine Burton, J.E. Cooke, Jean Peer, Audrea Joyner,
Opal Crozier, H. Gordon Crozier, Wm. Dyer, A. Johnstone,
John Methot, Gord Elder, Florence Elder, Vera Jones, Ernie
Jones, Phyllis Goss, Roma Church, Shirley Chapman, Ellen
King, R.A. Cuthbertson, S. Cuthbertson, Lillian McConnell,
Angela McConnell, Ken McConnell, W.H. Wagner, A.J. Brennan,
I. Wagner, M. Brennan, G. King, A. Hastings, Jacquie and
Bob Besse, V. Grills, Bill and Nancy Crisp, W. Purcell,
J. Shelton, R.N. Foley, Dorothy Foley, Thelma Winter,
- l -
Harry Bennett, Ray Fairbora, Ralph Knott, John Purdie,
Verna Purdie, Hilda Hulcoop, Ted Hulcoop, Liz Edwards,
Suzanne Newell, John Edwards, G. Beare, Isabel Dart, Mary
and George Husband, Rex and Birdie Mitchell, Albert and
Grace Cowan, Helen and Percy Brown, Charles and Cynthia
Prescott, L. Hewitt, Helen MacFie, Thelma Halfacre, Marilyn
Swerdon, Robert Swerdon, Shirley Woodrow, Mildred Breedon,
Fred Arff, Charles Lowe, Gerald Kenny, Jerald Schnurr,
Bud Arbour, Marg Simpson, Dennis and Bonnie Johnston, Edward
and Janet Fleming, Gail O'Brien, ute Stibbard, Robert and
Lynda Johnston, Gerry Snout, Doreen Snout, Linda Hollins,
Roland Mazerolle, Elisabeth Leyds, G.M. Holms, J.P. Davey,
Marion Saila, Redge Long, Vera Long, Wm. K. Saila, Dauna
and Syd Baker, Robert Duncan, Susan Grant and family,
Ken and Rene McCutcheon, Norm and Nel Newell, J. & M. Buckley,
Fran and Don Hanney, Nancy Mitchell, Ron Mitchell, Elda Hall,
Frank Kastle, Ross and Velma Bradley, Marjorie Ramage,
Bob Ramage, G. Mugford, N. & P. Roe, Jeff Ball, Dayle
Frechette, Andy Frechette, Kim Brown, Judy Dibben, Wayne
Dibben, Wm and Maureen Heath, John Bradbury, Tim Brown,
Mary Fell, Bill Fell, Bob Gauldie, Lynn Murray, Dave Woronka,
Jim Williamson, Connie Cochrane, Jack Seigel, David Wilkins,
Tom and Audrey McConkey, Tom Bosker, H.S. Rogers, Barbara
Cline, Kate Barrie, Calvin Nelson, Paul Johnson, Leigh
McFadzen, Nancy Mitchell, G. Patricia Kenny and Nobby Koyama.
Reeve Robert E. Drury chaired the meeting.
Reeve Robert E. Drury opened the meeting by explaining to
those present that the purpose of this Special Public Meeting
was to review a development proposal in the area known as
Buffalo Springs. The public meeting was held pursuant to
Sections 17(2) and 34(12) of the Ontario Planning Act, on
June 5, 1989. This meeting is being held under the Planning
I Act to provide the public with further information. The
Reeve also indicated that a Public Open House was held at
the Arena Community Room earlier on this day.
Notice of the Public Meeting was circulated to all those who
requested notice. As well notice of this meeting was placed
in both the Barrie Examiner and Orillia Packet and Times on
June 8, 1989 and July 10, 1989.
The Reeve then asked the Clerk if there had been any
correspondence received on this matter. The Clerk responded
by indicating that the following persons had submitted
correspondence with regards to this proposal:
Peter Walsh; Lillian McConnell, Gary Luhowy, Unipeg Earth;
J.E. & R.E. Hutchison; Anita Beaton; E.J. Beaton; W.A. Young;
I John Hare; Roger Kerslake; G.M. Holmes; Allan Baker, Susan
Cockburn; Alice and Barry Cockburn; Connie Cochrane; Naomi
BaIl; Jeffrey Ball; Harold Atwood; Buffi Woronka; Paul Ego
and Robert Ego; Mary Wilkins and D.B. Wilkins; Elwood
McLaughlin; Ministry of the Environment and Ministryof.Natural
Resources.
The Reeve then stated that all persons present would be
afforded the opportunity of asking questions with respect
to the proposed Official Plan and zoning By-law Amendment.
He advised those present that it would be appreciated if
the persons would state their name and address and speak
into the microphone. He also asked that those present would
afford all individuals their right to speak without being
interrupted. This would allow the minutes of the meeting to
be properly recorded.
- 3 -
Prior to opening the meeting to questions from the floor, the
following members of Council asked questions which related
to the proposal to the Developer's consultants.
Councillor Crawford:
Ross Raymond:
Councillor Crawford:
Ross Raymond:
Dep-Reeve Caldwell:
Ross Raymond:
Dep~Reëve Caldwell:
Ross Raymond:
Dep-Reeve Caldwell:
Ross Raymond:
Councillor Burton:
Ross Raymond:
My questions concerns the wetland
areas being the Coldwater Creek, Coulson
Creek and Open Space area?
MNR has classified the area as significant
wetland area. The plans have been
redesigned to avoid those provincially
significant wetland areas from development.
Through a storm water retention system,
the storm water entering the creek will
be controlled by detaining it in temporary
detention areas.
Some of the concerns expressed to me have
been the loss of rural atmosphere.
What percentage is proposed for development
and what percentage for open space?
44% preserved in Open Space with
of the area for development. The
density is 560 units, 300 in the
area and 260 larger lot types of
20,000 square feet in area.
56%
overall
centre
over
What investigation has been done to provide
for the need for future schools within the
Simcoe County Board of Education system?
I have received a letter from the Board
of Education. They are unable to decide
whether a school site is required, as the
Developers are prepared to set land aside
for this use. Specific legislation has
received 1st reading under the Development
Charges Act whereby municipalities may
impose an education lot levy on lands
being developed. It is my understanding
that such levies may be used for new
schools as well as additions to existing
facilities.
What will the educational costs be in
relation to transportation for this area?
Don't have those figures available. School
buses are now in the area, Horseshoe Valley
and Sugarbush. This will be the Board's
decision, not ours.
Will this development result in increased
taxes, primarily due to schooling?
In my opinion, there is no clear proof
that this will happen because of the
varying assessment base: taxes for education
are based on certain classes and their
respective market value assessment.
My concern is about the water supply and
the impact this may have on the neighbouring
wells?
I think I would rather have Mr. Bob Long,
Consulting Engineer, answer your question.
Bob Long:
Councillor Johnson:
Ross Raymond:
Reeve Drury:
Ross Raymond:
II
II
II
II
II
II
II
d
- 4 -
Investigations have not been completed
but their indications are promising.
This area has had 54 tests, 9 holes
drilled 80-100 feet and 2 test wells
of approximately 400 feet dawn. Aquifer
samples have been taken and it is
likely that the system will be able
to pump 105 gallons per minute continuosly.
The system will be subject to guidelines
imposed by the Ministry of Environment
and Water Resources Act. It is also
our conclusion that there would be
no significant impact on the surrounding
wells because of the depth of the aquifer
Neighbouring wells will be monitored.
The owner will be responsible for any
problems related to the neighbouring wells
and compensation paid, if necessary.
The proposed communal water system will
be assumed and operated by the Township.
What is the lands classification and
soil type in relation to the agricultural.
The Canada Land Inventory Classes did
not seem to be adequate for this particular
development. A special review has been
done resulting in the cleared lands
having a 5 - 6 classification. I have
had discussions with the Ministry of
Agriculture and Food and they have verbally
advised that they have no objection.
What will the benefits be to the people
of Oro as a result of this development?
In the area of fire protection - hydrants
be installed within the development
whereby water may be accessed by the
fire department for refilling their
equipment. Over the last 10 years, the
lifestyle of this area has been set by
nearby developments such as Horseshoe
Valley. This area started out as a
seasonal winter chalet use, but has evolved
to now being more for permanent use.
It is the desire of many citizens now
living in the more urban centres to move
to this area, mainly due to the cost
of housing. The infrastructure will be
used in a lighter way because of density
and therefore better maintenance qualities.
It offers a multiple of lifestyle
alternatives. The Municipality is growing
2 - 2~% per year with a ratio of 2.68
persons per family in permanent residential
which is down from 2.86 in 1985. More
accommodation units are needed to absorb
the growth of persons coming into the
Municipality. This growth is sometimes
inevitable, although the Municipality
can still choose the kind of development
it wants. Severance development happens
quietly and has a serious effect
on agriculture and uses up frontage on
roads. Subdivision development, in the
eyes of Planners, is preferred to the
continual erosion by severance.
Reeve Drury:
I would like to mention to those present
herethis evening that the Planning Act
requires the Municipality to respond with
a decision within 30 days of a Public
Meeting, otherwise the provincial Government
will make the decision. We feel confident
that we have the proper staffing and
professional consultants to assist Council
in making such decisions. If Council
rejects this proposal, the Developer may
go to the aMB. If Council is in favour
of the development, the ratepayers may
object to the aMB.
Council is now considering adopting a
policy whereby development would be
considered for 10ts having a minimum size
requirement of 1/2 acre only.
To ensure the meeting is held in an
orderly fashion, I will inform you that
at any time throughout the meeting, any
member of Council may move for an
adjournment, so we ask for your co-operation
in this respect in order that all questions
or concerns you have may be heard this
evening. Council and the Planners are
now prepared to entertain
questions from the floor.
Edward Hall:
I live on the South Half of Lot 1,
Concession 9. Mr. Reeve and Members of
Council, at the June 5th, 1989 Public
Meeting I requested deferral of the
the said meeting for a two week period
as Mr. Raymond had supplied promised
reports only three days before and our
group, the Jarratt/Coulson & District
Residents Association had not had sufficient
time to properly review them. Unfortunately
on that occasion, you decided in favour
of the Developer. Our request was denied
and we were advised to submit our questions,
observations and concerns based only on
a curren t- review of Mr. Raymond's
report. Since our last meeting I have
called both Mr. Raymond's place of business
and his home advising of the purpose of
my call - that is to obtain latest eng
information and that Mr. Raymond call
back. There were no responses. You will
be disappointed to learn that once again
Mr. Raymond and associates have used a
two-way delivery plan being that their
latest release was delivered to my home
at 5:30 p.m. Friday July 7th. As you
decided in the Developer's favour on
the last occasion and consideration of their
questionable tactics, I respectfully
request that in all fairness, that you
reschedule this hearing until September
1989. I say September to give our group
time to properly prepare our position
on the vital issues as key members of
our group will not be available until then.
May you please give your consent to a
September meeting.
- b -
Reeve Drury:
I am not in a position to apologize for
the Developer. Council earlier today
discussed a few options and would be
pleased to entertain meeting with your
executive at any time to discuss these
matters and try to clarify them. I
feel we have called the meeting tonight
and has been well advertised with 500 -
600 people here and I think we will
proceed. If you have problems with some
of the technology brought forward to
you, we will certainly discuss this with
your executive at a later date.
Larry Jean:
Lot 15, Concession 5, Oro Township.
With respect to the creek water, how long
will the water be held in those holding
tanks?
Ross Raymond:
T~Jrenot actually tanks, they're depress
in the ground called detention areas and
it is likely that the time limit would be
under 12 hours. The storm that we regard
as the predevelopment storm is applied
here as frequency storm. The storm that
you would normally design for in an
area such as this would be in the area
of a 25 year storm so that we would be
holding water between the 25 year storm
and the 5 year storm.
¥
Larry Jean:
How much are these houses going to be?
Ross Raymond:
I don't know. My client is not a builder,
but having determined what all of the
costs are going to be for the development,
it would be less than Barrie or Toronto.
Larry Jean:
How can you say that if you don't know?
Ross Raymond:
Because we have a different market here
and it is our intention to produce a lot
which is lesser in cost than an urban
lot in Barrie and we believe we can do
that.
Larry Jean:
You also mentioned severances. It reminds
me of a case just down the road from me
on the corner of the 4th Line and the
15/16 Sideroad where a fellow was looking
to severe a corner of his home property
and Council wouldn't let him. So why
would you let people come in from the
city and sever a farmers lot.
Ross Raymond:
I am sure you can understand that I am
not speaking about anyone's specific
severance. I'm talking about the methods
in dividing lands for building purposes,
one by severance and the other by plan
subdivision. In my view, and I believe
in the view of many planners in this area,
that development by plan of subdivision
gives the opportunity to the Municipality
to control development very closely to
ensure that the development meets all
the expectations of the Municipality and
the surrounding residents. Severance
doesn't give you this same opportunity
because you don't know exactly what the
conditions are going to be until after
the decision has been made and I speak in
terms of the long-term effect.
Ross Raymond (Cont):
Larry Jean:
Ross Raymond:
Larry Jean:
Reeve Drury:
Larry Jean:
Reeve Drury:
Jack Seigel:
- 7 -
Of course there are many good lots
created by severance and make excellent
properties by that method. But if this
continues and goes on in increasing numbers
of severances every year, then there is
a certain lack of control that becomes
evident. That is the point I was trying
to make.
How long is the maintenance period for?
I suspect it will be different for diffent
services but I would think probably it
would be in the two year range, generally
speaking. The water and sanitary services
are separately looked at by the Municipal-
ities Engineers and both are included
in the Subdivision Agreement signed with
the Municipality and its in that agreement
that the maintenance period will be set
out. storm services are usually made part
of the road system because that is where
most of the drainage is carried. Whatever
the maintenance period for the internal
streets within the development will be
in the Township's standard form and will
also apply to the storm sewers.
My next question is for Council. I just
got a tax bill and my taxes went up
$400.00. Apparently $200.00 of it is
for water services. Could you explain
that?
If your not on a subdivision you do not
receive water services.
So what's the $400.00 for now?
Out of that $400.00 the Township of Oro
would take approximately 12% of it, so
that wor~s out to about $50.00 which
would go towards plowing the roads,
garbage collection, etc. The schools
receive about 70% of it and the rest
goes to the County.
Lot 1, Concession 8, Medonte Township.
In addition to that I own property
adjacent to the Buffalo Ranch and downstream
among the contributory of the Coldwater
River and also about 20 acres of the
wetland which abutts the boundary.
I have been involved with the Federation
of Ontario Naturalist as a Board of
Directors member. The planning procedure
in Oro seems to be a very fragmented
process. It appears that the Oro Official
Plan has not been updated since 1971,
except in 1983 when amendments were
consolidated, and from my reading of the
pIan it looks like you are now amending
your amendments. Development is inevitable
and it may seem to be desirable by the
residents of Oro but I think it should
certainly be well planned for. The way
this proposal looks it appears that maybe
a block of land of 430 acres came
available and a purchase was negotiated
and a plan was then affected. This
wasn't a plan as a result of looking
at Oro and seeing a need or fitting into
Jack Seigel (Cont):
Ross Raymond:
- 8 -
a plan that was desirable. This was the
result of short-term crisis planning
and my guess is that the residents of Oro
would like to see a plan clearly in effec
before development, particularly of this
scale, is considered. A 1971 plan does
not fit 1989 standards.
Woodlots and wetlands are an extremely
valuable resource and it is my feeling tha
these resources do not just belong to
the individual land owner, but to the
people of Ontario. Remaining wetlands
and woodlots which are old natural growth,
not reforested, are valuable resources
and we should think very clearly before
we alter those. Driving up and down
Horseshoe Valley road I have watched a
major development go into Horseshoe Valley
which seems well planned and is moving
along nicely, but one small part which is
quite visible from road has moved into a
large spectacular healthy old woodlot.
Even when completed, its going to stand
as a monument to human folly because that
is a woodlot that cannot be replaced.
85% of the wetlands in Ontario have been
lost and in some parts of Southern Ontario
they have 10st~100%. This is a result
of cultural ideology which has evolved
a long period of time. Development is
good, if some is good, more is better;
why have enough if you can have more than
enough. Wetlands are important in many
different ways like flood control, water
quality, recreation, etc. The stream
running through Buffalo Springs is 1/2 me
to a few metres in width which may seem
very insignificant. Biologically if you
look at the productivity of this stream
it has more important than a 40 foot width
stream.
The Ministry of Natural Resources has been
working towards a policy on wetlands
and the Federation of Anglers and Hunters
and the Federation of Environmentalists
have submitted a response to that policy.
The concerns of these organizations are
that the policy is good but it doesn't
go far enough and has "no teeth" in it.
Wetlands are classed 1 - 7, 1 and 2 are
seen as provincial significance, 3 as
regional and the remainder locally.
The Drainage Act is literally out of the
dark ages.
In the Buffalo Springs Plan, three options
still exist but my discussions with
Mr. Raymond revealed that you have scrapped
the sewage lagoon which was located on
the wetland and were going now to the
large underground system.
That will be our recommendation to our clien .
We have had one meeting with the Ministry
of Environment where the options were
discussed. Our consulting engineers prefer
the underground system and it will be
taken back to the Ministry of Environment
to review our findings.
- 9 -
Jack Seigel:
I have had a consultation with the Ministry
of Natural Resources, Ministry of the
Environment and a Solicitor. The proposal
given to us indicates that a small section
remains Class 1 and surrounding areas have
been downgraded. This area is not just
the Coulson stream, it is the headwaters
of the Coldwater River. Do you see the
Class 1 portion as the higher class part
of the wetlands?
Ross Raymond:
There are minor encroachments on the lower
class parts of the wetlands. Our original
plan showed two roadways on the westerly
side of the property and will now be
reduced to one road, that being the most
northerly one to serve as the main entrance.
On a general note, if our amendment is
eventually adopted by Council, this'
whole process is taken to the Minis~ry
and then very close attention would be
made by the Ministry of Natural Resources.
At that point we would be submitting a
draft plan, to date we are working with
a concept plan. We have revised it once
and we are prepared if necessary, to
revise it again. We are still flexible
on those points and we expect to have
those discussions with the Ministry to
refine the details as are necessary.
Jack Seigel:
In your report you have indicated that
the flow of wetlands occured at an
annual rate of 4.5 cubic feet per second
with a minimum of 1.2 cubic feet. It
has been known that this flow rate has
reduced to as low as .9.
Ross Raymond:
The area along the edge of the wetland
will have to be satisfactory to the
Ministry of Natural Resources. The
situation has always been with this piece
of land, to preserve all parts of it
where necessary (wetlands).
Tim Brown:
I live in Sugarbush, Lot 36. Is there
a positive side for the taxpayers as to
why this rezoning is necessary?
Ross Raymond:
One is unable to put this into dollars
and cents. I spoke earlier about what
I thought were the benefits to the
Municipality with respect to planned
development as opposed to piece meal
development. I have been in the planning
business for some 36 years and this is
a very atractive area here for development
purposes - the Horseshoe Valley corridor.
This is an important artery to carry
traffic and also serves a large recreational
complex. I think its an advantage to
the Municipality to have planned development
proposed in an area which provides the
kind of lifestyle which people are asking
for these days, for which pressure is on
all municipalities in Ontario. Financially,
I think one of the ways in which you will
benefit will be the way in which they are
probably already benefitting from such
developments as Horseshoe Valley - being the
lack of students in the school system.
These people are more recreational and
retirement oriented and therefore are past
the small children stage. The lot levy
proposed for educational purposes will
Tim Brown:
Ian Beard:
Ross Raymond:
Ian Beard:
Lillian McConnell:
Dep-Reeve Caldwell:
Lillian McConnell:
Councillor Crawford:
Lillian McConnell:
- 10 -
be of a benefit for the people in the
area as well as a municipal park.
I will continue to try to investigate
the assessment structure to evaluate
the financial aspects. The intention
is not to add the development costs
to the existing taxpayers in the area,
jt will pay its own way. There are many
intangible benefits and I would say that
one of them that I consider very important
is the fact that all of you are here
tonight talking about this proposed
development in your community along the
Horseshoe Valley corridor.
I appreciate your answers but I am not
throughly convinced that the plus outweight
the minuses.
I am a ratepayer from the Township of
Medonte. If I wanted to live in Barrie
I would move there. I feel you hold our
land in trust for future generations, once
its gone, its gone. Good planning is
based on expanding global areas not out
in the middle of nowhere. It ismy previous
experience in politics that the Ministry
of Agriculture and Food or any other
Ministry would not give a verbal answer
until the Council approves it and it is
submitted for approval. Mr. Vanweesenbeck
would never give us a verbal or written
approval until Council approved of a
planning proposal and was submitted in
writing to the Minister. Mr. Raymond
has said he had received verbal approval,
you certainly must have more power than
the Township of Medonte has.
After an inspection of the Buffalo Springs
area with Mr. Vanweesenbeck, his verbal
answer to me was they would not have an
objection to the development.
Another concern I have is with respect
to the traffic on Horseshoe Valley road.
I as a bricklayer, would stand to make
a lot of money from this development,
but there's more to life than money.
Lot 1, Concession 9. I would like to
address my question to Deputy Reeve
Caldwell. Please inform me of who you
spoke to at the Board of Education and
what is the documentation and findings
regarding the accommodating of the
student.
I have no written documentation and I said
at the outset that we had concerns about
education and wanted the Developer to
address this to the public.
Your intentions may be honourable but
I would suggest that you research this
information yourself and not always rely
on the Developer's planners to provide
it to you.
The only information I received was
from Gail O'Brien, Public School Trustee.
There seems to be a lack of concern for
the young people by Ora Council and therefore
it is up to us as parents to keep their
interests at heart as you will not.
Lillian McConnell:
Ross Raymond:
Lillian McConnell:
Paul Ego:
II
II
- 11 -
My next question is to Mr. Raymond.
Even though you have suggested that there
would be a limited number of children
coming from this development, where do
you propose these children will go to school
as East Oro is already operating at its
maximum. The other nearest schools are
Warminster, Marchmount and Moonstone
which are also overcrowded.
We respond to what the Board of Education
tell us. At the end of the meeting I
will show you the letter we received from
the Board.
I think everyone here would like to
hear the letter. I was given the
impression during the meeting in June
that you said you had a verbal announcement
from the Simcoe County Board that they
could accommodate these children.
I was informed by the Board they would
provide accommodation for these children
but they assured me that this couldn't be
done at East Oro. These children would
have to be bused into Orillia or farmed
out to various schools allover the
region. That is unacceptable to the
children to develop a sense of community
and for parents to try to arrange day care.
With reference to Bill 20, it has not
been passed and it concludes that the
educational development charge, so I've
been told, will not be used for upgrading
or additions to existing schools, but
for new schools only.
I encourage our Council to find the
time to research this, find their tongues
to tell us their research, and to find
the backbone to turn this poorly-planned
proposal down.
I live on Lot 2, Concession 9, Medonte
Township and I own land right across from
the Buffalo Ranch and farm both sides of
the Buffalo Ranch. The owner of this
property now has devoted his entire life
to wildlife conservation. I know
Mr. Schumacher as a neighbour and a friend
and I know he would not have chosen a
development like this which would destroy
the wetlands or woodlots. We as farmers
in the area take our lives in our hands
every time we take a piece of machine out
onto the Horseshoe Valley Road. I would
propose, at a County level, that once
we do have the people to pay the taxes,
that we have a right and left hand turning
lane, not just at Buffalo Springs but
also at Horseshoe Valley and Sugarbush.
It would make this corridor a much safer
place. I look forward to development
so that the tax base can build better
roads.
A few years ago the Coulson store burnt
down mainly because they didn't have
water to fight the fire. This development
would offer a reservoir with hydrants
to serve the local people around the
area. We would also benefit from cheaper
- 12 -
fire insurance for our farm buildings.
There are only about 4 people who make
their living off the land surrounding
Buffalo Springs. I understand that
there is going to be a paved road from
the Horseshoe Valley Road to the Barrie
Road. Much of the attention has been
placed on Horseshoe Valley and Sugarbush
but not much attention paid to the
development which has been in place for
15 years or more, being Big Cedar Estates.
I am told by the planners here that
Big Cedar Estates is one of the cadillacs
of a well planned community in Oro
Township. Another example of this is
in the Scott Subdivision along the Barrie
Road. I don't really know what all the
fvss is about other than that of jealously
on behalf of those opposed.
James Zerney:
I am a resident & owner and did not move
to Oro to get away from anywhere. I too
enjoy watching the trees and wildlife.
The plan to me looks like a good plan,
the assumption that all you people know
your jobs. What concerns me the most is
the state of the schools in the rural
area are not up to par. The only way
to upgrade those schools is by developments
such as this which provides a tax base
for the school system. This development
is costing someone a lot of money and for
them to want to do it is amazing to
me and should be looked at in great detail.
I would like to say that this development
is very worthwhile and deserves some
consideration.
?
What do you do for a living?
James Zerney:
I myself, am a builder. I hope to make
some money out of this project. I have
no complaints about my taxes in Oro, I
think we are one of the cheapest around.
I didn't expect to be very popular.
Ed Hall:
There have been people who are considering
this development about the same size as
the Village of Coldwater. Coldwater has
sewers, fire departments, police, street
sweepers and road maintenance, and so on.
All of these things cost money. Take that
cost and put in on top of the costs of
operating the Township of Oro and that is
how much your taxes will go up if this
development proceeds.
I wish to express concern with the
hydrogeology report dated March 13th
and revisions dated July 6th, 1989 which
is the basis of water use planning for
the Buffalo Springs proposal. The
report concludes "sufficient ground water
is available to permit the development
of a municipal water supply for this
development". No place does the report
address the affect it will have on
adjoining wells. I would like to
demonstrate by aid of this diagram
what in all probability will happen.
(Mr. Hçll referred to a prepared chart
and explained his conclusions of what
the results to neighbouring wells would
be)
Ed Hall:
Connie Cochrane:
[
I
i
I
II
[I
--
I
I
[
I
I
I
I
I
i
I
!
I
r
- 13-
As water supply is such a vi tal question,
it is respectfully requested that Council
reject this proposal.
I live on the East Half Lot 1, Medonte
Township. Thank you for arranging this
second public forum and thank the people
for coming and your concerns about the
future of Oro Township. I have before
me 4 documents of a different colour
and it has occurred to me how appropriately
chosen the colours were. The blue
one is the Oro Township Official Plan -
blue because it is sadly ignored and
antiquated. The black one is the planning
proposal for Buffalo Springs - black in
this case because of the shadows of
misleading and incomplete information.
The red one is the sewage treatment
proposal - meaning stop, beware. The
last one is green and is an Advisory
Report to Council from the Jarratt/Coulson
and District Residents Association which
demonstrates that the Buffalo Springs
development proposal does not conform with
the Official Plan.
The term "Horseshoe Valley Road Linear
Community" appears in the Buffalo Springs
Planning Report no less than 47 times.
No where in the Oro Township Official Plan
is there any mention of such an idea.
Since the planner has implied that this
so-called corridor would not only extend
4 lots deep into Oro but also 3 lots
deep into Med6nte. Medonte Township has
no such land on Horseshoe Valley Road nor
have they ever been advised by any other
Government agency of such a concept.
(Mrs. Cochrane refers to specific sections
within the Oro Township Official Plan,
the Buffalo Springs planning proposal,
and the Jarratt-Coulson & District
Residents Association Advisory Report)
During Mrs. Cochrane's presentation,
Reeve Drury asked if she would be supplying
Council with a copy of the Residents
Association report - Mrs. Cochrane replied
that she would
The recommendations in our report are
but two; (1) reject proposed Official Plan
Amendment No. 39 and strike any and all
references to a Horseshoe Valley Road
Recreational Corridor from all records
and documents within the Township and (2)
Being immediate proceedings for the planning
and public hearings for the updating of
the Township plan, meanwhile placing a
freeze on further development.
I now respectfully submit a copy of this
report.
(The meeting was recessed for approximately 20 minutes)
Ted Beaton:
Lot 10, Concession 8, since 1861.
We in Oro are not alone in our concerns
about development. I propose three
things here this evening, not only
for Council but for all of us here.
(1) a Planning Study, which was
already mentioned;
Ted Beaton (Cont'd)
Bill Blair:
Ross Raymond:
Bill Blair:
Ross Raymond:
Bill Blair:
Ken McConnell:
Reeve Drury:
- 14 -
( 2 )
a Township-wide Ratepayers
Association~
a Conservation Authority for
the Townships of Medonte and Oro.
( 3 )
I have prepared two letters which
I will submit to Council tonight.
The way in which you've been talking
is that there aren't going to be very
many children from this, is this a
retirement community?
What I was trying to suggest was that
the type of people who are presently
coming into the area, are not large
families and are very similar in
character as the population which is
already forming in the Township; that
being a smaIl number of children relative
to the number of units.
How are you going to control it if
people want to buy property that have
4 or 5 kids and have the money to
afford it?
I didn't suggest and would never suggest
that there would be control prohibiting
from doing that. The types of family
moving into the area based on the
statistics we have, indicate that the
people who are in this area now do not
have large numbers of children and
therefore I believe that trend is
becoming established in this area.
Down in Harbourwood they are very
expensive houses, professional people,
and they have children. How do you
control that.
My concern is that of traffic flow which
is going to result from this development.
I am using the statistics straight from
the Developers proposal. Traffic peaks
on County Road 22 at 340 units per hour.
The Buffalo Springs study indicates an
additional flow of 1,890 units per
day on County Road 22. This transfers
into 9 second intervals between vehicles.
Translating this specifically to Buffalo
Springs, you will see vehicles on the
8th Concession coming in at 16 second
intervals counteracted by vehicles at
9 second intervals on County Road 22.
The study recognizes that there is
a need for traffic lights and control
and would be a responsibility of Simcoe
County.
These people here put you in power to
represent them and it is your democratic
right to turn this thing down.
At this point in the meeting, I would
say that Council is of the opinion that
the majority of the people here are
against the proposal. Bearing that
in mind, I would ask that you please
keep the remainder of the questions in
point form in order that we can try to
answer the questions of everyone here
tonight.
- i~ -
Peter Walsh:
Lot 7, Concession 8. Someone mentioned
earlier about paving the road on the
8th Line from Horseshoe Valley Road to
the Old Barrie Road as a result of this
development.
Reeve Drury:
That is too early to discuss at this
point. We have not approved the
amendment to allow it to go ahead and
that type of discussion would take
place later, if in fact it was approved.
Peter Walsh:
Traffic also travels north and south,
not just east and west, as has been
talked about earlier. I think a lot
of consideration has to been given to
the use of the 8th Line.
Marion Saila:
Lot 5, Concession 10. Earlier it was
said that Big Cedar was a model community.
I don't think many people have any
idea how many houses 572 really are.
There are only 230 units at Big Cedar.
This development would be twice plus
the size of Big Cedar. Those homes are
all within a few feet of each other and
of a standard size. Big Cedar is
controlled. What does the Developer do?
I know he develops, but what exactly
does that mean?
Ross Raymond:
My client is not a builder, his intention
is to develop the lots and then market
them to builders or individuals who
wish to construct their own homes. In
doing that, a set of building restrictions
would be accompanied with the deed to
the property to regulate in certain
aspects including architectural control.
Only the Developer or Builder can regulate
architectural control, municipalities
do not have this type of control.
Marion Saila:
When does the Developer leave the project?
Does he leave everything in working
order regardless of the fact that some
lots may not be serviced yet or built
on?
Ross Raymond:
The Township enters into an agreement
with the Developer and many of these
details are contained in that Agreement.
It is virtually the last items in the
process which are very important.
John Hare:
Lot 2, Concession 8.
Refers to water supply and distribution
on page 34, section 13.6. On June 5th
the Developer presented facts using
a water tank based on 80,000 imperial
gallons for domestic use and fire
protection. On July 10th, the Developer
calls for a water tank of 200,000
imperial gallons for domestic use and
fire protection. Both of these proposals
are fully inadequate. I have attempted
to contact the Fire Chief of Oro and
since on numerous attempts to reach him
failed, I contacted the Deputy Chief
for the City of Mississauga. In their
City, the Developer would have to supply
a watermain of 10" size, hydrants no more
than 500' apart7domestic use not to be
John Hare (Cont'd):
Fred Arff:
Ted Duncan:
Ross Raymond:
Ted Duncan:
- Ib -
shared with fire protection water and
the system have a capacity of at least
350,000 imperial gallons. Since
the nearest fire station is located
in Rugby, over 5 miles away, the
insurance premiums would be higher.
Therefore the Developer would have to
supply a new 2 bay fire hall, 2 fire
trucks with an 840 gallon per minute
pump with a 1,000 tank. If the Township
has to supply this, it will cost of
taxpayer over $500,000.00. The
Township currently has at Shanty Bay,
a 1964 pumper, at Hawkestone a 1972
pumper, at Edgar a 1971 pumper and a
1972 pumper at Rugby. To replace this
equipment at today's price would cost
between $600 - $700,000.00. This
type of development should be built in
or near, a City or Town where all
services can be supplied.
Concession 1.
The last few years we have seen our
taxes go up. In 1985-1986 - 5%, 1986
1987 - 7.5%, 1987-1988 - 5.5%, 1988-1989
my taxes went up 45%. Does that give
you any indication as to what our tax
increase is going to be if you have
further subdivisions like this in Oro?
I live at the 9th Line and Bass Lake
Sideroad. I have a few concerns to
bring to your attention from the Orillia
Fish and Game Conservation Club. We
are concerned about wildlife and water.
You have talked about the Horseshoe
Valley corridor from Craighurst to
Bass Lake. This would block the
immigration of wildlife to the north.
We have made some recommendations in
our report which I think are pertinent
to land use. One being that the
Municipality should consider, along with
Medonte Township, the formation of
a Special Planning Advisory Committee
for the area long the Horseshoe Valley
Road where planning proposals would
be reviewed, particularly so that
there would be some inter-municipal
co-operation considering development
in this area. The second one being
that the Horseshoe Valley Road is
designed to carry traffic and belongs
to the County of Simcoe and for that
reason is meant to fulfill this function
of carrying traffic. It may be
important that the access to Horseshoe
Valley Road be limited from now on
and the frontage along the road would
be served by entrances off the Township
roads on either side.
What your saying is that they should
cut off access to the County Road after
yours. wildlife travels and they too
will be crossing the road. The Orillia
Fish and Game Conservation Authority
has sent letters to the MNR and the
Ministry of Environment, copies were
also sent to Allan McLean, M.P.P. and
your Township. You mentioned that you
Ted Duncan (Cont'd):
Ross Raymond:
Ted Duncan:
ROss Raymond:
Ted Duncan:
Ross Raymond:
Don Hanney:
- 17 -
would be taking a lot of water out
in aquifer, and that you would be
putting it back in. This wouldn't
be quite the same quality of water.
How far is the sewage lagoon or
containing area away from the stream
and wetland?
We have looked at two sewage systems,
one of which was a lagoon. The
Consultants recommended we follow the
other alternative which involves a
sewage treatment system. This is
a mechanical plant device which then
pumps the sewage after treatment to
the underground bed which is about
2,000 feet from the stream. The
disposal of the affluents would then
be stored in a type of septic bed
system, which is not very deep.
One thing that really bothers me here
is that the people here are making
promises they mày' not be able to pay the
price if something goes wrong.
We have asked the Municipality to
consider our proposal and that is what
we are here to discuss. We hope that
it will be reviewed in great detail by
the ratepayers and Government agencies.
I am not here to ask you to approve
something that doesn't work. I am
asking that you look at and consider
a proposal that we have made honestly
and fairly and I don't believe that it
is fair that you suggest that we are
lying to you.
I did not say you were lying. Another
concern the Conservation Club has
is that we have property on the other
side of the mountain which has a stream
flowing out of the hill and we are
concerned whether that stream will
diminish, as it feeds into Bass Lake.
We have ponds there for trout, etc.
Do you know the exact location of
this property? The maps on the other
side of the room probably show it on
there.
I own property on the Shanty Bay road
and the 8th Concession. We are not
trying to develop in Oro. You said
that people like to move to Oro so that
they have a rural atmosphere. If you're
going to dump 500 homes in Oro, you
certainly are not going to have a
rural atmosphere. The other concern
I have is whether the Councilor the
Developer has given any thought to
the impact this development would have
on reducing our capacity at the Landfill
Site. Also, is there any money coming
from the Developer for us to purchase
or acquire adjacent land to the
Landfill Site? If there are many
retirees living in this development,
they will be going south in the winter
and those homes will be subject to
break-ins.
-18 -
Dave Wilkins:
I live on the 8th of Medonte, Lot 4.
Some historical points I would like
to make you aware of are that in 1947
the previous owner of the Buffalo Ranch
had some wood lot cut and the Anderson
farm across the road lost their
well water supply - it went dry. They
weren't the only ones who had the
problem. More recently, I know of a
current land owner on the 7th of Oro
who said that for the first time this
a spring fed creek on the back of their
property has gone dry. This happens
to coincide with the fact that they are
neighbours of Sugarbush development
who has just completed a large amount of
removed woodlot. I think we need to
consider the meaning of the word
development. When you drive down
Horseshoe Valley Road and look at both
the Oro and Medonte side, the bush that
you see is development. Its farms,
reforestration and development doesn't
necessarily always mean you have to
build something. You could say that
the land in question, the Buffalo Ranch,
is already developed. Development
doesn't always have to be growth in
terms of population. The rate of
population growth Mr. Raymond mentioned
earlier is exactly the same as the
population growth rate in the Third
World countries. My question is
if you rezone property which is currently
rural, agricultural, etc. is there any
evidence that type of zoning is every
reversed? I do know that agricultural,
rural and recreational zoned lands can
move back in forth to be used for various
things. In other words any zoning
other than residential, automatically
carries with it all kinds of flexibility
with it if you change your mind. You
can never change your mind once you
zone something residential.
Paul Kelland:
5th Line of Oro.
We need to think about where we are
living and the people who are working
professionally to do this job deserve
some credit. I have dealt with Council
myself and discovered that it is not
easy. You can't slip anything through
Council as there is quite a process to
go through. If Council turn this
down, would it be going to the Province?
Ross Raymond:
That is a question the Developer would
have to answer if that does occur.
Paul Kelland:
I have seen Council and staff work
hard and I have seen a notice in the
mail where it was suggested that perhaps
things were being hidden. I haven't
seen anything hidden. All I have seen
is the due-process happen.
Jeff Ball:
I live within 140 feet of the proposed
development. Mr. Raymond has led us
to believe that the Open Space area is
not farmland. Almost 50% of the
- i:1 -
Jeff BaIl (Cont'd):
Buffalo Ranch is prime agricultural
land. I feel that this important point X
fact was hidden from us tonight and
they only provided us with the
information they wanted us to hear.
Ross Raymond:
It is correct that some of the land
which is on the Buffalo Ranch is very
capable of agricultural use. Some of
them are cleared and some of them are
under forests. I did not say that the
site had no agricultural capabilities.
I said that the original designation
of the Canadian Land Inventory were
overly optomistic with the capability
of the land on the Buffalo Ranch and
that the bulk of the land was classified
as Class 5 and 6.
Jeff BalI:
I am concerned too with the guarantee
if my wel1 goes dry. I bought a house
in Barrie from a Developer by the name
of Tridel. I actually had a document
from the government saying this work
would be done and it never was.
I wil1 probably end up with some
ridiculous legal fee in trying to
collect on this so-called guarantee.
Reeve Drury:
If this development goes forward, the
Municipality will ensure that there
will be insurance, if it can be proven
that there wells have gone dryas a
result of this development.
Bob Long:
.,L
I just wanted to clarify that a number
of questions on creditability that have
been raised. I have been associated with
Mr. Ross Raymond for over 28 years.
The last gentleman mentioned that the
consultants had found that 46.9% of the
property was prime agricultural land.
That is stated quite accurately on
page 20 of Mr. Raymond's report, it
is not hidden anywhere.
II
John Hare:
Our Association has three requests:
1.
We want the Buffalo Springs
proposal rejected as we are opposed
to high density residential develop-
ment, and the impact it has on our
schools, traffic, garbage, water
supply, policing, fire protection, etc
The Official Plan for Oro is outdated
and more like a patch work quilt.
We want a suspension on any dense
residential development. We believe
that this new update could be
accomplished in the next 12 - 18 mon
When we have the plan, we stick to
it.
2.
3.
The Reeve in closing the meeting thanked those in
attendance for their participation and advised that Council
would consider all matters before reaching a decision.
He also advised those present that if they wished to be
notified of the passing of the proposed by-law, they
should leave their name and address with the Clerk.
The Reeve also congratulated the people of Oro Township and
Medonte for their assistance and co-operation during this
meeting and the process, including the meeting held on
July 5th.
- 20 -
Motion No.1
Moved by Caldwell, seconded by Crawford
Be it resolved that we do adjourn at 10:50 p.m.
Carried.
Reat llJ~
Cl&l?! 1~
\
'-