07 17 1989 Public Min 7:00
THE CORPORATION OF THE TOWNSHIP OF ORO
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SPECIAL PUBLIC MEETING
MONDAY, JULY 17,1989 @ 7:00 P.M. - COUNCIL CHAMBERS
FORTY-FIRST MEETING 1988-1991 COUNCIL
The following members of Council were present:
Reeve Robert E. Drury
Deputy Reeve David Caldwell
Councillor David Burton
Councillor Alastair Crawford
Councillor Allan Johnson
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I Also present were:
Beverly Nicolson, Gary Bell, Scott
Brumwell, Scott Elliott, Anne Terry,
Jacquie Besse, Bob Besse, William
Fitzgerald, Kathy Dauphin, B. Gauldie,
L. Murray, Nel Newell, Angela McConnell,
Lillian McConnell, Frank Janson, Elsie
Hare, John Hare, Anita Beaton, W. Reid,
Gordon Handy, Edward and Janet Fleming,
Alex McGuire, June McGuire, Gladys
Gronfors, Leon Musicco, Nancy Musicco,
Bill Bazzard, Shirley Norman, Leita
Handy, Joan Reid, E.R. Alexander, Barry
Norman, Jim Shellswell, Pat Shellswell,
Diane Buffett, and one member of the
press.
Reeve Robert E. Drury chaired the meeting.
Reeve Robert E. Drury opened the meeting by explaining to
those present that the purpose of the Special Public Meeting
was to introduce a proposed Zoning By-law Amendment under
Section 34(12) of the Planning Act. The proposed Zoning
By-law Amendment would rezone those lands located in part
of the West Half of Lot 8, Concession 8 from Agricultural
(A) Zone to the Industrial Extractive (M2) Zone.
Notice of the public meeting was circulated to all property
owners within 400 feet of the subject lands.
Notice of the public meeting was also placed in the Barrie
Examiner and the Orillia Packet and Times on June 14, 1989.
The Reeve then asked the Clerk if there had been any
correspondence received on this matter. The Clerk responded
by indicating that correspondence had been received from
Mr. & Mrs. Gordon Handy, Mr. Harold L. Atwood, and Mr. Peter
Walsh. (This correspondence was read to those present by
the Clerk).
The Reeve then stated that Council wants to hear from all
sides of those who are in favour of the proposal and those
I that are opposed to it. Council does not propose to take
a position at this meeting and are here this evening to
listen to the concerns of those present. Council at a later
meeting will consider the merits of their representations
and make a decision in what is believed to be in the public
interest.
Reeve Robert E. Drury then turned the meeting over to the
Township Planner Ms. Beverly Nicolson who explained the
purpose and effect of the proposed amendment.
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At the conclusion of Ms. Nicolsonls presentation, those
present were then asked if they had any questions or concerns
with respect to the matter.
Barry Normën:
When did this land become the rural
aggregate designation?
Bev Nicolson:
Official Plan Amendment No. 15 ~as
approved by the Ministry in 1983;
subsequent to that there was a zoning
by-law which initiated rural, rural
aggregate and rural residential zones.
Lillian McConnell:
Could you explain the meaning of
rehabilitation after the gravel has been
extracted?
Bev Nicolson:
Currently the rehabilitation plan is to
revert it back to Agriculture. Before
they commence extraction they remove the
topsoil and store it. When they
rehabilitate they replace topsoil and
it reverts back to Agriculture.
Lillian McConnell:
Does it have to rezone back to Agriculture
or could it be possible that it be
rezoned Residential.
Bev Nicolson:
The current planning is to return it
back to Agricultural. Anything else
would require an Official Plan and
Zoning By-law Amendment.
Lynn Murray:
I live on the 7th Concession, Lot 6.
My first question is for Mr. Small. When
I came in this evening I presented you
with some letters which were not read
this evening and is there a chance that
these letters could be included into
the minutes to be aware of our opposition.
Bob Small:
It is the policy of the Municipality
that they must be received during office
hours and certainly these letters ~ill
be circulated at their next meeting
prior to any decision being made on this
particular proposal.
Lynn Murray:
It is unfortunate because when I spoke
to you personally about one particular
letter which was not signed you did not
inform me of that policy.
Lynn Murray:
Mr. Drury, have you ever been awakened
by the roar of gravel trucks going by
your house at 5:03 a.m.?
Reeve Drury:
I live on Hwy 93 and there are probably
more gravel trucks travel that road than
most in Simcoe County. To ask if I have
been awaken at 5:03 a.m., I don't know
about that.
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Lynn Murray:
The occurances of early morning wake-ups
have been far too numerous to mention.
It is absolutely astounding what other
people in this Township are missing by
not living where there are three existing
gravel pits, and a fourth already licenced
to operate and now the Township is
considering giving permission for a fifth?
(Asked Council if they had any children).
How would you as parents like to live
with the constant worry that we live
with daily. Many parents who chose to
live in rural areas chose so for themselves
and for their children. There are
children on the 7th line who have been
forced to retire their bicycles. Just this
past weekend a child was run off the road,
his bike was smashed and he has some
stitches in his head. The 7th Line from
Coulson to Highway 11 is a well travelled
Simcoe County Board of Education bus
route. This morning I spoke to the
directly involved people who have continuous
reported that these trucks do not obey
stop signs, speed signs, and they don't
even stop for the flashing lights on the
buses. Who gives them permission to
disregard the laws that you and I have
to follow. The Board of Education has
been notified as well as the O.P.P.,
every time these occurances happen. Everyone
here tonight who lives on the 7th Line or
the Old Barrie Road or travels those
routes, has experienced at least one near
miss with a grave truck.
My second concern is rezoning of this
farm. When I came to the office to
review Sarjeantls proposal, two-thirds of
that farmland is Class 3 Agricultural.
It has been a good workable farm and it
is a crime to destroy such valuable farm
land like this, especially when we have
four already in the same area.
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The third concern I have is the topic
of development. Last week at the public
meeting there was a map clearly showing
100 acres on the corner of the 7th Line
and the Bass Lake Sideroad which also
has plans for a subdivision. I question
the Township's philosophy and their
planning for the future. This property is
a mere 1/2 mile away from the nearest
gravel pit. Before you now you see
concerned and angry people, perhaps not as
many as last week, but just as concerned
and angry. We are seriously questioning
your abilities and foresight when for two
weeks in a row we have to fight so hard
to ensure that Council consider all the
factors before reaching some of these
crucial decisions. We know your job is
not easy, but must we live in your back
pockets to make sure that you are keeping
us in mind? You have to consider rural,
recreational, agricultural and business
interests along with the Provincial
Governments concerns, we know that is not
an easy task. I propose you limit the
travel of gravel trucks to limit the number
of functioning pits to 3 at anyone time;
you find a better method of policing their
Lynn Murray (Cont'd):
Bob Gauldie:
Pat Shellswell:
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neglect in following the basic rules of
the road and develop structured hours of
operation. Doesn't 7:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m.
sound realistic to you? I also propose
that we maintain all good farmland as
possible, we aren't producing anymore.
Lastly, I propose that Council revise their
overall plan that would better reflect
the wisdom, judgement and caring for all
concerned.
The taxpayers are carrying the load for
these gravel pits. Council should do a
survey to see how much we spend to maintain
the roads. The dust on these roads is
horrendous. What guarantee do we have
from the pits that they will maintain the
wells in the surrounding area. Why not
make full utilization of the pits being
used now and once they are finished, then
open up new ones? Gravel is a necessity,
no one is arguing that but we are upset
with the way in which it is being done.
As a land owner, who would not want to buy
on a road which is dusty, that you cannot
let your kids play near, and there is
noise all around. We are looking for
a compromise to ensure they are utilized
in the proper manner. I would like to
make a couple of proposals:
(1) gravel pits be charged with road
maintenance;
guarantees to everyone in the area
that their water will not be affected:
(3) restrict new pits;
(4) Councilor the gravel pits be asked
to reimburse those land owners who
lose on the land value by depreciation.
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Village of Edgar. Approximately 1 year
ago we attended a meeting here and
protested the gravel trucks going through
Edgar Village. During the past year, I
haven't seen much chan Things are
basically the same way other than a
reduced speed limit and the occasional
policeman out trying to control the speed.
I am also concerned about the time of day
in which these gravel trucks are coming
through. The homes in the Village of Edgar
are older homes and built closely to the
County Road and when you are awakened at
5:00 o'clock in the morning day after
day, it becomes a little irritating. I am
also concerned about the safety of children
and there are a number of children who
stand and wait for the bus at the Edgar
store, maybe as many as 20 children.
If all these gravel trucks are coming
down the 7th, there are just as many
going across the Old Barrie Road. It's
nothing to look out now and seeing 5 or 6
going through the Village at one time.
They have put some type of a hardtop onto
the Old Barrie Road and I am sure the
gravel pits are not paying for the upkeep
of these roads. They also now have shoulders
and this has made it even more dangerous
because the trucks go off on 0 these
shoulders. I have personally had a
truck coming at me head on.
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John Hare:
Do you have any idea how much weight
are in these trucks? I found a bi 1
the other day on the side of the road
and the gross weight of the truck
including snow boot, was 60,200 lbs.
His load was 40,200 Ibs. Our roads
are not built to accommodate these
30 ton trucks.
Reeve Drury:
There are no weight regulations that the
Province puts out and therefore they
can haul whatever amount they want on
the roads during the full load season.
Oro Council will be having a meeting
within the next month or so with all
the pit owners on the 7th Concession and
will be looking at several options to
improve our gravel haul routes with
the pit owners. This is a voluntary basis,
they recognize the need for better roads
also and they want to contribute to some
of our roads to improve.
Barry Norman:
One of my biggest concerns is what Mr. Hare
has already mentioned - the roads. I
find it hard to believe that Council would
even consider a rezoning application to
allow trucks hauling trailers on the
roads that they cannot safely permit.
We've had them go by on Sundays and by
the time the O.P.P. arrive the driver is
long gone. The trucks all have C.B.'s
so they don't get caught speeding.
I understand that there are 8 or 9
more applications in for gravel pits,
is that correct?
eeve Drury:
I understand through the Ministry of
Natural Resources liason person that there
are 9 in total applications coming into
Oro Township but we have no idea of
when or where.
arry Norman:
To me that is unbelievable to think
this could happen, there will be maybe
twelve or thirteen pits between the sixth
and seventh. I feel in the interest of
preservation of the Natural Resource and
the people that live there that you should
operate the existing pits, exhaust those
pits, control them to some degree and when
the gravel is necessary then licence the
pits. How would you people like the pits
down by your home? Secondly, if you have
ever lived near a pit there is something
called air polution and one of the pollutants
is large clouds of dust. The other problem
is the smell from diesel equipment. Also
what about wild life, what about environment,
erosion caused by the cutting down of trees.
And back to the water situation, in my
opinion there should be a written guarantee
up front, that we are not going to have
a water problem and if we do it will be
rectified. Another concern is the property
devaluation, we have spent alot of money
putting alot of quality into our home and
felt we wanted to live there all our lives.
Barry Norman:
Bob Swerdon:
rly Nicolson:
Swerdon:
rt Small:
Swerdon:
rt Small:
Swerdon:
rt Small:
Swerdon:
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A guarantee in writing should be made
by the gravel pi ts gua¡:anteeing that
our values will not drop. There is
not a big delegation here tonight but
there is alot of concerned people and I
hope the Council will look at people
and put them ahead of dollars.
I would like to direct the question to
Bev. Approximately how many thousands
of acres in Oro do we have designated
for aggregate development in the Official
Plan? I apologize, I realize off the top
of your head you could not answer the
question but I think you would agree that
it does measure in the thousands of acres.
Is that reasonable?
About eight, one thousand acres.
I think it is considerably more than that.
If everyone of the properties that has
aggregate designation in the Official
Plan today carne forward with an application
to rezone to industrial for extraction,
the Township today does not have a plan
for the orderly development of this
aggregate. As we put a big hole in the
middle of this Township and extract
the heart of Oro, the residents
of this Community are going to be
paying with the disadvantage of living
in this Township. If there was compensation
to the residents for that during this period
of turmoil, but I can not see how this
can happen. I would suggest that the
Township take a look at the proposals
that are going to be comming in, there
is not going to be just nine there is
going to be nine hundred over the next
couple of years. The legislation has
not been passed yet.
Yes it has.
What is the final figure?
It is four cents a tonne.
Effective immediately?
In September.
So any application prior to that seems
to be redundant. In 1973 there was
severance applications by farmers that
were held back, in some cases six months,
until the Official Plan went through so that
it would allow only one severance to come
through. I do not think this Township
should be looking at this situation in
any different way and there should not
be any applications granted until that
actually comes into effect. The second
factor is that the 7th line 0 Oro has
been designated as a haul route through
the Official Plan. It is not ready yet
to be a haul route. I do not see how
we can have any vehicles or increase
in the traffic going through at this
Bob Swerdon: cont'd
Lynn Murray:
Scott Elliott:
Dr. Beaton:
Ed Flemming:
Reeve Drury:
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point, until it is a haul route, capable
of handling it. In the next couple of
years there will be work done on it,
when that work is done it will inconvenienc
a couple of hundred trucks a day. If all
of a sudden we increase the tonnage by
opening up the number of pits that look
like they are going to be opening up and
increasing the tonnage, wdre increasing
the number of trucks that are going to
have to go through that route while that
road is being reconstructed. I hope
that the good planning we have seen in
subdivision proposals in this Township
does not repeat itsself in the good
planning you are going to be proposing
in the gravel industry.
I have a concern I would like to direct
at Scott Elliott, in Bev Nicolsonls
report that the farm would be restored
to agricultural, I would like to ask
Scott how you would restore property
to agricultural after you have dug down
one hundred feet.
You are not going one hundred feet deep
just like that, the property is one
hundred acres and it would be sloped
down gradually on each side. There
would not be a problem as far as growing
things on.
I have here a letter which just registers
objection to this current request for a
rezoning and request a hold be put on
any decisions of changes and developments
at this time because we have had so many
changes and developments within a very
short period of time. It is extremely
difficult for anyone at this time to
predict just what an impact it is going
to have in terms of environment, economic
and social effect it is going to have.
I have one specific question in connection
with the future planning I hope you are
going to do before you launch into any
further development and that is how many
gravel trucks would you like to see
travelling around the roads of Oro Townhip?
Which areas of Oro Township do you see
these trucks travelling because I donlt
think the seventh line by its location
alone is going to take all the trucks.
Do we contract out the Calcium supply
because we cannot do it with our own
equipment?
That is correct.
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Ed Flemming:
Our own equipment did a super job first
time this year. The equipment contracted
out is next to a waste of time because
they go down the middle of the road so
that almost as much dust is created. I
would suggest spending the lit Ie bit
extra to them to go down one side and
back the other or use our own equipment
as well as we can.
Bev Nicolson:
I would just like to say that I think
the concerns that have been expressed
here tonight are all quite valid and I
am sure that Council recognizes them as
well because they do live in the Township
and they do see all the things you have
talked about tonight. We have to recognize
that we do have a very necessary and valid
resource right in the middle of our Town-
ship and the Provincial policy is quite
strong in the protection of this. Under
the regulations of the Pits and Quarries
Control Act they try to regulate, protect
the property owners, as well as the Pit
owners because that is what they are there
for, to try and hear both sides. This
municipality has expressed its concerns
and has shown its efforts with regards
to the roads and I don't foresee that they
will open up every Township road for
truck traffic and I think that is a valid
comment.
Barry Norman:
Regarding the efforts that have been made
to date on the seventh of Oro, there has
been definitely calcium south of the Old
Barrie Road and down to Highway #11, all
kinds of calcium, but north of the Old
Barrie Road, on the seventh, where all the
pits are located and where we happen to
live there is a little bit of calcium, there
is a washboard road that has not been graded
in a long time and that is where your truck
traffic is. I would like to ask what effort
has the Township made on that area to date
because I havn't really seen much?
Reeve Drury:
I would like to bring the people up to date.
We have budgetted $85,000.00 this year
to go towards surveying and technical
reports, soil testing, to go towards the
seventh this year. There is a report
coming forth from R. G. Robinson and
Associates, our Engineering firm, as to
what the cost would be to reconstruct
that road. We will have a meeting with
the Pit owners just as soon as we receive
this report with the costs and hopefully
we can then negotiate a good 1 for the
people of the Township of Oro. Also the
Pit owners will be able to bring their
expertise forward and help build this road.
To answer Bob Swerdon's question that
when the road is reconstructed that there
is going to be alot of trucks going some
place else. We are now looking at doing
winter construction in this program so
that the trucks wi I not be routed else-
where and to make It more convenient for
the public. There is alot of planning
that has to t place and it will not
happen over night.
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Pat Shellswell:
Mr. Dru , I thought some of that
winter construction was going to happen
last year, did any happen?
Reeve Drury:
There was surveying done last year.
Pat Shellswell:
Will there be any done this year?
It takesa long time when you are spending
three to five million dollars to get it
into place and spend it properly.
Reeve Drury:
Pat Shellswell:
I have a question for Bev Nicolson. The
seventh seems to be the designated truck
route, do I have the right to go out and
stop all the trucks that are going
through the old Barrie Road and send them
down the seventh?
Reeve Drury:
If there not on an appropriately designated
haul route then they should be advised
accordingly.
The Deputy-Reeve has advised me that
the Barrie Road is a designated haul
route.
Bev Nicolson:
Scott Elliott:
The concerns that have been voiced here
today, I share them and I think our
difficul arises in one a need and
two a need to put a product that is
needed in the market place and we can't
pick where it is. The Sarjeant Company
has been around for one hundred years
now and we havn't done it by being
obtrusive to people. Your concerns,
we are trying to consider as best possible.
One of them initially is certainly traffic
and trucks. Unfortunately we can't take
it out by helicopters, its not economical
to do it that way. We did have a look at
a place on the fourth of Oro and it did
not look as suitable from the point of
view of residents. The residents
there told us it would be better if we
went to the seventh and they helped us
find a place. We actually have a letter
in Council saying that at least we
tryed to be responsive to them. Indeed
the seventh line has Provincially
significant resource. We have to address
the problem of trucks and safety. In fact
we have a letter here now and I will read
part of it to you because I believe this
is the first letter on record to Council
with regards to roads. The problem is
you have to use some road to get there.
The best we can do there is try and
control the safety of the trucks, control
the road itsself and be considerate as
possib I have here as well with me,
in support) is Scott Brumwell from the
Skelton and Company and Gary Bell who
is a Planner for them as well. If I
have questions I cannot answer for you
then they can assist in that. Are there
any questions about this property as it
presently exists. This is a diagram of
how the process 0 extraction will be
conducted and what types of environmental
protection are being taken.
Scott Elliott: cont'd
Bev Nicolson:
Scott Elliott:
Leon Musicco:
Scott Elliott:
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Lynn Murray:
Scott Elliott:
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We do net want to effect your property
value a~d will make every effort to
make sure that does not happen. In terŒ~
of truc~s, in another area where we
operate a pit which is in the Town of
Phelpstcn and has a higher concentration
of peop:e than Edgar and what we did
initially and it seems to have worked
well, is I talked to the lady in the
grocery store at the corner and if any
truck goes through there too fast then
she calls back to the scale house right
away. The extraction would be done
in stages and there is progressive
rehabilitation as this is going on you
cannot rehabilitate one acre at a time
because you cannot dig down that abruptly.
Our record of doing it is good, we have
cleaned up other pits that we have gone
into and we will continue to do that.
Is there any other questions in regards
to the extraction.
What period of time would all of this
take place?
Our objective is not to move the materia:
out of ~ere instantly, we do not want
to deplete our resource we want it to
last as long as possible. If mother
nature ~as enough material in there it
would be nice if it could last 50 years.
As that happens there is progressive
rehabilitation going on. You try to
keep the minimum amount required open
at a ti~e. If it is not there it will
be a shorter period of time.
Are you proposing to go within 5 feet
of the water table?
1.3 metres is what is set.
extracting under the water.
point view we will not be
that much water out but also
going i~to the water table.
We are not
From our
taking
we are not
Your personal presentation to me was
that you may not use all the materials
for your purposes there and you may
have to wash for other people to come
in and use materials that you can't
use for your production. I think the
public should be made aware that you
might be selling the material on that
property that you are not capable of
using which does require washing.
The on reason we would sell outside
material really is to facilitate the
extraction of other material. It is
a secondary part of what we do. In the
test holes that we took indicated very
, excellent gravel so hopefully there
wont be very much of that material.
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Scott Ellio~t:
Much of the material that would be
unsuitable, of which I hope there is
very little, would be sold as a by-
product on the open market.
Barry Norma~:
What volume of water do you anticipate
in using?
Scott Elliott:
In Phelpston right now we are not using
any water. If the aggregate is clean
and of the tests that I have taken there
and observed it is clean enough that I
do not need to wash. Where we run into
the need to wash is if the aggregate is
dirty. It is hard to predict all that
will be there. Washing is a more expensive
way of processing and if we can do it
without washing that is our preferred
method.
Barry Norman:
How many gallons per minute are you
trying to get out of the ground? What
quantity are you going to have available
if you need it?
Scott Brumwell:
If it is required, at that time a report
would be prepared by a hydrogeologist
which analizes the whole underground
water regime. At this point in time
we are not too sure of the volume
involved.
Barry Norman:
Do you have an estimated volume required?
Scott Brumwell:
At this point in time I could not tell
you, 1'm not sure.
Barry Norman:
You must have an idea, being in the
business, what your firm would require?
Scott Elliott:
I know it uses a three inch line generally,
it depends on your operation. It is
not a fixed thing, depending on what the
test report shows. We do not really want
to use water it is more awkward for us to
do that and the amount of water would
be dictated by he requirements that
are there or how quickly you wash, the
rate of production. If there are any
bad results from it we are responsible
for correcting other peoples wells, it
is cut and dry. If I drained your well
from my operation, I have to fix your
well or bring you water.
Barry Norman:
Is that an unwritten law or is it
something in the PiΠand Quarries Act,
or is this just your company's policy?
Scott Elliott:
To me it is an automatic law, I believe,
but it is our company policy to correct
the situation if it occurs. We try
really hard to get along with people,
we are not one hundred years old by
making everybody mad at us, we do not
want to do that. hnother thing
you mentioned if we could just run
one p at a time, the number of pits
does not necessarily dictate the number
of trucks. We do not load a truck
.
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before seven dclock in the morni~g. Are
there any other questions, I have certainly
tryed to cover everything.
Lynn Murray:
You mentioned you live in a gravel pit
now, could you please tell us where
you are living?
Scott Elliott:
It is in Midhurst and I am actually
right on a pond where they did go
through a water table, it was a gravel
pit for twenty or thirty years a~d
now it has been redeveloped.
Reeve Drury:
(Introduced the four members from the
Ministry of Natural Resources, and
asked if they had any comments they
would like to make).
Mr. Fitzgerald:
We are here to answer any questions to
help the Council if anyone would like
to ask questions of us.
Reeve Drury:
Are there any question for the Ministry
of Natural Resources staff? If you
have concerns about the Pit please come
forward and ask them some quest s.
Bob Cobbi:
Is there a maximum amount that they
can take out at anyone time fror
anyone area?
Mr. Fitzgerald:
Each licenced pit has a tonnage limit.
It is usually a supply and demand
situation and when the market is good
as it has been in the last few years
most of the operations have been at
there maximum or greater and have had
to ask for an increase.
The Reeve in closing the meeting, thanked those in atte~dance
for their participation and stated that Council would give
consideration to the arguments for and against the project,
before reaching a decision. If anyone wished to be notified
of the passing of the proposed by-law, they should leave
their name and address with the Clerk.
MOTION NO.1
Moved by Johnson, seconded by Burton
Be it resolved that we do now adjourn this Special Public
Meeting @ 8:35 p.m. Carried.
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