09 04 1990 Public Minutes
, I' ",
THE CORPORATION OF THE TOWNSHIP OF ORO
SPECIAL PUBLIC MEETING
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 4, 1990, @ 7:58 P.M. - COUNCIL CHAMBERS
0 E HUNDREDTH AND ELEVENTH MEETING 1988-1991 COUNCIL
i
T~e following
II
J~.n"
A~~O Present
II
11
I
II
Ii
members of Council were present:
Were:
Ii
"
I
"
II
Ii
II
II
,I
Ii
Reeve Robert E. Drury
Deputy Reeve David Caldwell
Councillor Alastair Crawford
Councillor Allan Johnson
Councillor David Burton
Mr. Ron Watkin, Mr. R. Vandezande, Mr. Frank
Tecklenburg, Mr. Dino Sardelis, Mr. Nelson
Robertson, Mr. Earl Robertson, Mr. Morely
Shelswell, Mr. Fleming, Mrs. Shirley Woodrow,
Mr. Ray Powell, Mr. Ray Bowes, Mrs. Lynda
Aiken, Mr. Ron Sommers, Mr. Gary Tonge, Ms.
Linda Thome, L. Lilson, Ms. Sue Lilson, Mr.
Rocco Calautti, Mr. Jeff Ball, Ms. Hope
Anderson, Ms. Mary Anderson, Mr. Bob Toffan,
Ms. Sheree Toffan, Ms. Helen Toffan, Mr. Ron
Toffan f Mr. James Zerny, Mr. John Higgins,
C.F. Carthy, Mr. Robert Vieira, Ms. Karen
Vieira, Mr. Carl Cumming, J. Vanden Heuvel,
Mr. Martin Vanden Heuvl, B. Galipeau, Mr. Dave
Viney, Ms. Kim Viney, Mr. Bob Murray, Ms.
Eileen Murray, Mrs. Shirley Woodrow, Mr. Tim
Crawford, Ms. Ilene Crawford, Ms. T. Paterson,
Skelton, Brumwell & Associates, Ms. Pat
Pollock, Mrs. Gail Robinson, Mrs. Pearl
Robinson, Mr. John Palmur, B. Vitt, Mr. John
Kotsopoulos, J.A. Bragg, Ms. Marjory Hall, Mr.
William J. Jones, M. J. Jones, Mr. Alfred
Perkin, Ms. Vivian Bell, Mr. Ken Bell, Mr.
Kimle, Ms. Annette Pope, Norah Raiku, Mr. John
Muckleston, E. M. James, Mr. Alan Worobec, Ms.
Eileen Schwartz, Ms. Myrna Wesley, J. Wesley,
Mr. Rolande LeFane, Ms. Clare LeFane, Mr. Rod
Raikes, Dr. Dale Hodges, Mr. John Holland,
and One Member of the Press.
I
De! ty Reeve David Caldwell chaired the meeting.
Dep ty Reeve David Caldwell opened the meeting by explaining to
tho' e present that this Public Meeting was to obtain public
com ents with respect to a proposed Amendment, to amend the policy
of he Official Plan and Zoning By-Law pursuant to Section 17 and
34 f the Planning Act, 1983. The proposed Official Plan Amendment
wil provide policies which would address development and extension
or 'nlargement to existing dwellings on private or unassumed roads.
I
Thelproposed Zoning By-Law Amendment would implement the Official
PIa Amendment to provide appropriate regulations regarding
dev~lopment on unassumed and private roads.
TO~'ate, the Council of the Corporation of the Township of Oro have
not I",ma~e a dec~sion on this application, other than,proceeding to
a bl~c Meet~ng. Only after comments are rece~ ved from the
Pub tic, Township Staff and requested agencies within the
app iopriate time period, will Council make a decision on this
app ,ication.
I'
j,
N~tice of the Public Meeting was
a~d Orillia Packet and Times on
- 2 -
placed in both the Barrie Examiner
August 14, 1990.
T e Deputy Reeve then asked the Clerk if there had been any
c rrespondence received on this matter. The Clerk responded by
i dicating that one piece of correspondence had been received and
p oceeded to read the correspondence from Mr. Jeffrey R. Ball, R.R.
# , Coldwater, Ontario, with regards to the Official Plan and
Z,ning By-Law Amendments policies on Private and Unassumed roads.
D ar Mr. Small:
I
S~bject: Official Plan and Zoning By-Law Amendments
P~ease be advised that I have examined a draft of Amendment No. 4l,
a '!d the un::.:::::o::::::::e p:::a:::a::::n::ya::d Aa.ocia te, and
n te that our properties (West Half Lot 4, Concession 10, Oro
T wnship) existinq easement and right of way access are not listed
i , any table or shown on any map.
p~þase ensure that the easement and right of way access we have
adiross the West Half Lot 3, Concession 10, Oro Township, are
iJ!r' luded in your existing inventory of "Individual Rights of Way"
i the Township of Oro.
Y lrs sincerely,
ti
JJffrey R. Ball
R.j . #4
C~;dwater, Ontario, LOK lEO
Th, Deputy Reeve then stated that those persons present would be
at orded the opportunity of asking questions with respect to the
pr, posed Official Plan Amendment.
i
De uty Reeve David Caldwell then asked the Township'S Planning
Co sultant, Mr. Ron Watkin, to explain the purpose and effect of
th proposed Official Plan and Zoning By-Law Amendment.
Ro
Watkin:
This proposed amendment follows an issue
that has caused some concern to the
Township and too many of the Township
residents for sometime. It stems
primarily from the Ontario Government,
Provincial Ministry of Municipal Affairs,
and their viewpoint is that we should not
allow for any development whatsoever on a
private road.
The Township originally addressed some of
these issues in a previous document that
they had submitted to the Ontario
Government and from this document there
was certainly some questions raised by
the Ministry. There is certainly some
issues that in terms of the different
types of roads that exist in the
Township, need to be addressed in more
detail.
Subsequent to that, additional work had
been done in setting out the different
types of roads.
- 3 -
Watkin:
The proposed policy breaks the Township
down roadwise, relative to this amendment
and to a number of different road types.
These road types refer to those unassumed
roads which will be on Plans of
Subdivision with a correct Subdivision
Agreement. In other words an area where
there is a subdivision in place that has
been approved by the Township and
approved by the Ministry, the subdivision
agreement has been signed but it hasn't
quite been completed.
The unopened or unbuilt road allowances
are the roads that are not opened, where
a concession road does not go all the way
through or where a road allowance is set
up between two lots but it is not opened.
The third one is the unopened road
allowance for seasonal use. In the
northern part of the Township we have a
few of these which are only open in the
summer, they are not snow ploughed in the
winter time and therefore there is no
access through them in the winter time.
The fourth is an unassumed road on a Plan
of Subdivision that has been partially
built but has not been brought up to the
standards of the Township. There are
some older Plans of Subdivision where the
Subdivision Agreement may have lapsed or
for some reason the road was not
completed as it should have been back at
the time the developer was undertaking
the work required to bring the
subdivision to its final conclusion.
There are also unassumed roads within
Deemed Plans of Subdivision. There are a
number of Deemed Plans of Subdivision
along the shoreline and we have the
policy relating to those.
The individual Rights-of-Way where
someone has a right-of-way over another
persons property to gain access to his
property.
What basically we are doing without going
into a lot of detail is the policy says
that we are proposing to make or create
new lots. We are proposing to allow, if
you have a vacant lot on one of these
rights-of-way, the private roads, those
types of roads we have made mention of,
providing you meet the policies that I
will refer to in a minute, you would be
able to erect a residence on that land.
It also allows at the present time if you
live on a private road and you have a
dwelling on that road, technically you
would not be allowed to put an addition
on. The policy that we are proposing,
will allow you to put that addition on.
Watkin:
Kotsopou1os:
Caldwell:
Tecklenburg:
Watkin:
Reeve Caldwell:
- 4 -
In order to allow you to do these things,
you have to enter into an agreement with
this municipality to do so. The
agreement is an acknowledgement that
would be then registered on title. (Read
acknowledgement policy)
We are proposing to zone those areas that
we feel are in a situation that they
would occur on and those zones will be
placed in a holding zone so you do not
have to go through the rezoning process.
Ron, I would just like to submit a letter
for you to read.
I would just like to remind everyone that
you do have a couple of weeks to submit a
letter into the Township, expressing any
concerns, comments or suggestions that
you have regarding this proposed Official
Plan Amendment of Zoning By-Law change.
I would invite everybody to check the
maps that we have, showing some of these
roads and identifying any that you may
know of that we might not be aware of
yet, private roads, easements and that
sort of thing.
I was just wondering if any of the
previous applications that are in that
situation will be looked at now or do you
have to reapply again.
Yes, we have specifically looked after
your request.
I briefly went through your table of
areas and going through I didn't notice
anything regarding my specific area,
being Concession 4, Part of Lot l8.
There is lots 25 and 26 but that is as
far as it goes. Is this correct? You
took us out of Plan 712, our property was
in one of the Deemed Plans of
Subdivision.
Firstly, you are still in Plan 712, we
did not take you out of it, but your Plan
was Deemed. It was Deemed once and then
redeemed again. We have you on this list
in pink, so you are in there, we know
where you are. Two things I would like
to say, because you are in a Deemed Plan
of Subdivision, t:he subdivision has to be
upgraded to meet municipal standards, in
other words, if you are on a lot that is
too small, or the roads are not
appropriate, then you are not going to
get new development until the subdivision
is brought up to a standard acceptable to
Council.
Ron, would you please explain the term
Deemed Plan of Subdivision.
Watkin:
Tecklenburg:
Reeve Caldwell:
Tecklenburg:
- 5 -
A Deemed Plan of Subdivision has to be at
least eight years old and the deeming
process is one whereby a municipality has
the ability to go into an old Plan of
Subdivision, if it doesn't meet today's
standards and deem them not to be a Plan
of Subdivision for purposes of the
Planning Act only. You still own lot
such and such on the plan, but for the
purposes of the Planning Act and for the
purpose of issuing Building Permits, you
are not entitled to do so. If you had
ten lots and lots one to five are owned
by one person, Lot 6 is owned by another
person, and Lots 7 to 10 are owned by a
third person, when you deem that Plan of
Subdivision, not to be a Plan of
Subdivision for the purposes of the
Planning Act, you only have three lots
left. Lots 1-5 becomes one lot, Lot 6,
because it is individually owned is still
one lot and Lots 7-l0 is another Lot.
That person still owns five lots under
Plan 7l2, but for the purposes of what we
are looking at it is only one lot. The
only way that you can change the deeming,
is to upgrade the road, take Lots 1 to 5
and make three lots out of it or whatever
is required to meet the standards of
today, Health Unit, etc. It is a method
established to allow the municipality to
upgrade areas where there are certain
strong deficiencies to allow every lot to
be built on in the way they were
originally proposed.
Let me get this straight. I own one
particular lot, and another fellow owns
all of the other lots, now I can not buy
the other lot off that other fellow now,
can I? Can I get him to sell me one lot
and then have X number of lots? Is it
going to be possible for me to build a
house if this plan goes through?
The whole Plan of Subdivision has to be
upgraded to a certain level that is
acceptable to the Township and it is
going to involve some negotiating. If
there is just two of you involved the
best thing is for the two of you to sit
down and bring forward a joint proposal.
If that requires you purchasing some land
from that other individual, which
possibly will be the case because I think
the reason for the deeming was they were
very small lots.
The other question is that you have the
garbage trucks that go down our road,
without any problem, they turn around
without any problem; so it can't be that
narrow. So what is the problem?
i
Ii
II
R!lm Watkin:
II
II
II
]1
-I... Drury.
II
II
II
II
+ Hi..i...
RO~ 'atk'.,
il
II
Gt Robin'o",
.O~ ..tkin.
II
Ga~l Robinson:
II
RO~ Watkin:
II
Ga~l Robinson:
RO~ Watkin:
II
Ii
II
Allþelson:
I
I
¡
- 6 -
I don't mean to shut you off, but we are
getting off topic. I think what you have
to do is make an appointment with council
and go over what will be required to
bring that subdivision to the point
acceptable to Council. That has to be
done. Once that deeming By-Law can be
lifted and maybe your roads are
appropriate, but there could be other
problems, the soil might not be capable
of handling the septic effluent from a
fifty foot lot, etc.
I would just like to extend what Ron
Watkin has pointed out. The main reason
we did deem some of the Plans of
Subdivision in the Township was strictly
because of the environment. As you all
well know, in Innisfil Township a few
years ago, there was hundreds and
hundreds of these forty, fifty, sixty,
foot lots were built with septic tanks
and they had to go to a sewage treatment
system which cost them over thirty
million dollars. The Township of Oro is
trying to protect our assets the best we
can and we certainly can not afford to go
into the thirty or forty million dollar
sewage treatment system to handle a few
extra lots along the lake.
I live on Grandview Road. If I
understood Ron correctly he said there
would be a means whereby he would point
out exactly how this would apply to our
own specific lots.
What I am basically referring to is if
specific individuals have specific
concerns on specific lots, then I will
sit down with you and go through the
document and show you where it is and
what effect it will have.
(Asked Ron Watkin to clarify the second
and third item on the acknowledgement
agreement).
"The Owner acknowledges and agrees that
the Township is not required to maintain
or snow plough the said road or street".
The one above that, is
difference between the two?
there
any
"The Owner acknowledges and agrees that
the lot or lots in question does not
front on an approved public road or
street".
What does that mean?
You are just recognizing that you are not
on a public street you are on an
unassumed road or a private road or
whatever.
Do you have a list of these Roads in
question?
R~i Watkin:
"
~f rri~l.,
Ii
..~ ..tkin,
II
II
Mril Trimble:
II
Ii
II
De~uty
'I
Reeve Caldwell:
Mr. Trimble:
Ron
Drury:
- 7 -
We did set up a listing of the various
roads. The list is here and as I said we
are not proposing that it is a complete
list, we can add to it or subtract.
I noticed you havn't mentioned about you
want to sell some of the roadways that
have never been used. For example, I
have one hundred acres and I have a
roadway across my property that has not
been used for the past one hundred years
and you want to sell that strip of land
in the hundred acres that I have.
We are not selling anything tonight.
This is a public meeting relative to
those types of roads to establish a
policy which will allow some people
relief to be able to build on a lot or to
be able to put an addition onto a
dwelling, providing he meets the policies
that we are proposing here tonight. This
has nothing to do with the sale of land.
I am asking Council, are you aware of any
properties that have old road allowances
that people have never used and that have
never been opened but are assigned as
roads and the farmer has been using them
for the past fifty years?
The purpose of this was not to identify
pieces of road that we might be looking
to sell. The purpose was to provide some
benefit to those people who own
properties and find themselves in a
situation where they can't build because
they do not meet the current cr iter ia.
What we are trying to do is to find a way
to resolve some of these problems and at
the same time protect the environment.
There are many cases in the Township,
because of the steep hills, the original
road allowance was not followed and there
was what is known as a deviation road
through private property that got to the
next road. Those old road allowances are
still there and are still owned and
someday the Township may dispose of them.
That is not on our priority list at this
point and if they were sold, they would
have to be sold firstly to the adjacent
property owners.
What do you mean by bring a road to a
standard?
I can't answer that question, we would
look at each one individually. Those are
things that cannot be answered until an
actual application comes through to
upgrade one of these roads and Council
would have to look at it, as well as the
Township Engineers and then there can be
a decision made.
We are here tonight to deal with people
who own land in the Township, not
speculators.
I,
,
"
II
"
,I
D1putY Reeve Caldwell:
II
I,
C~~I ncillor Crawford: I just wanted to make one quick comment
'I to backup what I said a while ago about
I severances. On these unassumed roads
II there are some small lots and this is one
II of the reasons why I think we should look
'II, at a severance policy in the Natural Area
, so that some of these small lots can be
i added to. Right now there is no way you
II can do that.
Th~1 Deputy Reeve after enquiring and ascertaining that there were
nol further questions from those present, thanked those in
at, endance for their participation and advised that Council would
COiSider all matters ,before reaching a decision. He then advised
th ,se present that if they wished to be notified of the passing of
th proposed by-law, they should leave their name and address with
th" Clerk.
- 8 -
You should ask your lawyer specifically
when you are purchasing the property. Do
I tread on ¡U1 existing municipal road or
is it a private or unassumed road or
whatever? Those are things you need to
know before you make your purchase.
MO ION NO.1
Mo~ed by Johnson, seconded by Crawford
Be~¡'t resolved that the Special Public Meeting
an Unassumed Roads Official Plan Amendment)
8: , p.m.
Ii
I:
of Council (Private
now be adjourned @
Carried.
/ ~?:v~
Clerk Robert W. Small